The effort for E85
The effort for E85
Technically all of us across the United states are in a state of emergency. Gas prices are becoming rediculous. Just recently I paid $41.32 at the pump for 15 gallons of fuel, this means I paid $3.09 for 9/10 of a gallon.
The war in the middle east is a scam, and politics are still tainted with dirty blood money by the trillion dollar petroleum industry"OPEC".This war just let them steal oil from the middle eastern countries to only profit more.
The industry has lied to us for years telling us that we need EGR equipment on our vehicles in order to have a cleaner air enviornment. This is done in order to keep the tree huggers happy. At the same time it's a leech on engines that only depleats fuel faster, and gives you lower miles per gallon. So what this means is that we consume more fossil fuel than needed and we depleat the earth of it's natural resources.
We live in an era of lies and conspiracy, only to keep our own general public ignorant of the truth that would make all of our lives much easier to live by. OPEC provides these lies by paying off people in the government to provide more of there product to us the consumer.
In an effort to stop the over consumption of fuel and to have a cleaner air enviornment the state of Minnesota has made a clean air program using e85 fuel which is found here. http://www.cleanairchoice.org/outdoor/E85background.asp
Now this boggles me, I'm a Californian, I thought enviornmentalist in my state would of been the first to hop on a program like this one. My last sentence was sarcasim if you couldn't tell. OPEC pays the eviornmentalist, and the government to keep this information from you. They want every dollar you have.
Now imagine a world on e85 where hydrocarbons, and NOX emissions levels are so low that you no longer need EGR equipment or a catylitic converter, "basically the removal of all smog equipment". Imagine a world that will supply millions of jobs for the manufacturing of e85. Imagine a world, where we would all use synthetic oil at a fraction of the cost of your regular petro oil. Imagine a new economy where we would pay 85 cents a gallon at the pump, instead of my typical $3.09. Imagine a world with no more smog fee's and hasle to register your car.
The truth is out there. It is up to us to write letters to our state reps demanding the concern for cheaper alternative fuels. It is up to us to educate our parents, Friends, and family members. It is up to us to make a cleaner enviornment for our future and generations to come.
I see it like this if we don't take a stand at some point in time our future as tuners will look BLEEK. If we don't take action many of the luxuries that we take for granted will no longer exist.
I hope that this message gets through to you guy's, if you persist to do nothing about it, stop your *****ing and wining why gas prices are so freakin expensive. I think I brought my point across.
I'm asking for everyone to join the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition, there address is found here http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php .
Together we can tell our government, and OPEC to FU@K OFF!!
The war in the middle east is a scam, and politics are still tainted with dirty blood money by the trillion dollar petroleum industry"OPEC".This war just let them steal oil from the middle eastern countries to only profit more.
The industry has lied to us for years telling us that we need EGR equipment on our vehicles in order to have a cleaner air enviornment. This is done in order to keep the tree huggers happy. At the same time it's a leech on engines that only depleats fuel faster, and gives you lower miles per gallon. So what this means is that we consume more fossil fuel than needed and we depleat the earth of it's natural resources.
We live in an era of lies and conspiracy, only to keep our own general public ignorant of the truth that would make all of our lives much easier to live by. OPEC provides these lies by paying off people in the government to provide more of there product to us the consumer.
In an effort to stop the over consumption of fuel and to have a cleaner air enviornment the state of Minnesota has made a clean air program using e85 fuel which is found here. http://www.cleanairchoice.org/outdoor/E85background.asp
Now this boggles me, I'm a Californian, I thought enviornmentalist in my state would of been the first to hop on a program like this one. My last sentence was sarcasim if you couldn't tell. OPEC pays the eviornmentalist, and the government to keep this information from you. They want every dollar you have.
Now imagine a world on e85 where hydrocarbons, and NOX emissions levels are so low that you no longer need EGR equipment or a catylitic converter, "basically the removal of all smog equipment". Imagine a world that will supply millions of jobs for the manufacturing of e85. Imagine a world, where we would all use synthetic oil at a fraction of the cost of your regular petro oil. Imagine a new economy where we would pay 85 cents a gallon at the pump, instead of my typical $3.09. Imagine a world with no more smog fee's and hasle to register your car.
The truth is out there. It is up to us to write letters to our state reps demanding the concern for cheaper alternative fuels. It is up to us to educate our parents, Friends, and family members. It is up to us to make a cleaner enviornment for our future and generations to come.
I see it like this if we don't take a stand at some point in time our future as tuners will look BLEEK. If we don't take action many of the luxuries that we take for granted will no longer exist.
I hope that this message gets through to you guy's, if you persist to do nothing about it, stop your *****ing and wining why gas prices are so freakin expensive. I think I brought my point across.
I'm asking for everyone to join the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition, there address is found here http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php .
Together we can tell our government, and OPEC to FU@K OFF!!
Last edited by BigVinnie; Aug 24, 2005 at 11:54 AM.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 189
Unfortunately, ethanol is a big loser when it comes to efficiency from "sunlight to tank" because it takes so much energy to grow and harvest the necessary biomass, ferment it, and distill it to turn it into a usable fuel. Massive conversion to E85 would do a lot of bad things, chief among them requiring millions of acres of land to be devoted to the production of fuel instead of food. Plus, it's a crappy fuel - it has a little more than half the energy density of gas, so even if it did cost less, you'd still need twice as much of it to travel the same distance, and your car's range would be cut in half. It's also hydrophilic, meaning that it sucks water straight out of the air, making it a corrosion nightmare (ask anyone who runs a race car on methanol or ethanol).
The only people who A) know all the facts and B) are still pushing ethanol as a fuel have a vested interest in producing it - massive agribusiness companies, for the most part.
I'm not against alternative energy per se, but it doesn't take a conspiracy to keep E85 from being popular - it does that all by itself, thank you very much.
The only people who A) know all the facts and B) are still pushing ethanol as a fuel have a vested interest in producing it - massive agribusiness companies, for the most part.
I'm not against alternative energy per se, but it doesn't take a conspiracy to keep E85 from being popular - it does that all by itself, thank you very much.
Originally posted by PNG
The only people who A) know all the facts and B) are still pushing ethanol as a fuel have a vested interest in producing it - massive agribusiness companies, for the most part.
The only people who A) know all the facts and B) are still pushing ethanol as a fuel have a vested interest in producing it - massive agribusiness companies, for the most part.
If you don't allow the develpement of other alternatives, then you are stuck with NOTHING. Starting with ethonal will allow the R&D to find better resourceful alternatives.
Originally posted by PNG
Unfortunately, ethanol is a big loser when it comes to efficiency from "sunlight to tank" because it takes so much energy to grow and harvest the necessary biomass, ferment it, and distill it to turn it into a usable fuel. Massive conversion to E85 would do a lot of bad things, chief among them requiring millions of acres of land to be devoted to the production of fuel instead of food.
Unfortunately, ethanol is a big loser when it comes to efficiency from "sunlight to tank" because it takes so much energy to grow and harvest the necessary biomass, ferment it, and distill it to turn it into a usable fuel. Massive conversion to E85 would do a lot of bad things, chief among them requiring millions of acres of land to be devoted to the production of fuel instead of food.
Originally posted by PNG
It's also hydrophilic, meaning that it sucks water straight out of the air, making it a corrosion nightmare (ask anyone who runs a race car on methanol or ethanol).
It's also hydrophilic, meaning that it sucks water straight out of the air, making it a corrosion nightmare (ask anyone who runs a race car on methanol or ethanol).
Just like when MTBE was distributed we didn't understand it's effects either.
Originally posted by PNG
Plus, it's a crappy fuel - it has a little more than half the energy density of gas, so even if it did cost less, you'd still need twice as much of it to travel the same distance, and your car's range would be cut in half.
Plus, it's a crappy fuel - it has a little more than half the energy density of gas, so even if it did cost less, you'd still need twice as much of it to travel the same distance, and your car's range would be cut in half.
There is still 15% petroleum used to power the source to it's desired requirements.
Last edited by BigVinnie; Aug 24, 2005 at 12:58 PM.
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Posts: 189
OK, gasoline averages about 124,300 btu/gallon. Pure ethanol is only 84,100 btu/gallon, so E85 averages out to 90,130 btu/gallon, or 72.5% of the energy content, so my initial numbers were a bit off, but that still means that a car that currently gets 25 miles to the gallon of gas will only get 18 on E85.
According to that E85 page you linked, it takes 52 lbs of corn (1 bushel) to produce 2.7 gallons of ethanol. Current crop yields for corn (which is about the most efficient crop for ethanol production) are around 140 bushels per acre, which gives us a yield of 378 gallons of ethanol per acre, per year.
Still with me?
US per capita consumption of gasoline averages 470.6 gallons per year. If we were using E85, that would jump to 649 gallons, of which 552 or so would be ethanol. To produce one person worth of E85 would require 1.46 acres of farmland.
Multiply that by the number of people in the US (about 295.7 million) and we find that we'd need almost 432 million acres of land to grow enough corn to convert everything over to E85. Unfortunately, the total farmland in the US is only about 930 million acres, so we'd be using more than 46% of our farmland just to produce fuel. Note that this doesn't take into account the fuel required to grow, ferment, and distill - that just makes the situation worse, no matter which set of numbers you choose for ethanol's production efficiency.
When you work the numbers, it's easy to see why E85 makes no sense whatsoever for large-scale use, at least not until the petrochemicals really run out.
According to that E85 page you linked, it takes 52 lbs of corn (1 bushel) to produce 2.7 gallons of ethanol. Current crop yields for corn (which is about the most efficient crop for ethanol production) are around 140 bushels per acre, which gives us a yield of 378 gallons of ethanol per acre, per year.
Still with me?
US per capita consumption of gasoline averages 470.6 gallons per year. If we were using E85, that would jump to 649 gallons, of which 552 or so would be ethanol. To produce one person worth of E85 would require 1.46 acres of farmland.
Multiply that by the number of people in the US (about 295.7 million) and we find that we'd need almost 432 million acres of land to grow enough corn to convert everything over to E85. Unfortunately, the total farmland in the US is only about 930 million acres, so we'd be using more than 46% of our farmland just to produce fuel. Note that this doesn't take into account the fuel required to grow, ferment, and distill - that just makes the situation worse, no matter which set of numbers you choose for ethanol's production efficiency.
When you work the numbers, it's easy to see why E85 makes no sense whatsoever for large-scale use, at least not until the petrochemicals really run out.
But the point is I'm not talking about just using E85. Here is my quote from zilvia on this topic:
The only point I was trying to bring accross is that with other fuels available, there won't be the greatest demand for fossil fuel. This will also allow for other research and developement to find other fuel resources that may be more abundant. But if we as consumers don't allow other fuel sources, the Petroleum industry will inevitably run a monopoly, and still keep fuel prices high. Why because they can and we let them, especially when we don't allow other fuel sources come into the market place.
The only point I was trying to bring accross is that with other fuels available, there won't be the greatest demand for fossil fuel. This will also allow for other research and developement to find other fuel resources that may be more abundant. But if we as consumers don't allow other fuel sources, the Petroleum industry will inevitably run a monopoly, and still keep fuel prices high. Why because they can and we let them, especially when we don't allow other fuel sources come into the market place.
Last edited by BigVinnie; Aug 24, 2005 at 02:14 PM.
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I'm just saying that it's not a case of anybody "letting" alternative fuels come to market - it's straight-up economics. Even with government subsidies on the production end and sales tax breaks at the pump, E85 is still running $2.25 a gallon where it's available, making it the equivalent of $3.10 gasoline. Economies of scale might bring that down with widespread production, but then you'd have to abandon the tax breaks, so it would probably end up being more expensive per gallon instead of less.
Gasoline rules because it's still the cheapest way to get from point A to point B. Nothing will displace it until it makes financial sense, and even with gas at $3 a gallon, there's no alternative on the horizon that does. Once somebody can make money on an alternative fuel without needing a massive handout from the government to do it, things will change by themselves.
As an aside, you can see this dynamic working with hybrid cars like the Prius. They're good enough to be real alternatives to normal cars for a lot of people, but Toyota and Honda are still selling them for less than they cost to make, so they intentionally hold down production so as not to lose too much money. Even so, they're still $3000 or so more expensive than their non-hybrid twins, which takes 10 or so years to make up in better gas mileage for the average owner. They can't charge more, because then the demand drops way off, but they can't charge less either or they'll lose their shirts on the deal. Before hybrids really "work" from an economics standpoint, gas will have to get much more expensive, or battery technology has to get much better and cheaper.
Gasoline rules because it's still the cheapest way to get from point A to point B. Nothing will displace it until it makes financial sense, and even with gas at $3 a gallon, there's no alternative on the horizon that does. Once somebody can make money on an alternative fuel without needing a massive handout from the government to do it, things will change by themselves.
As an aside, you can see this dynamic working with hybrid cars like the Prius. They're good enough to be real alternatives to normal cars for a lot of people, but Toyota and Honda are still selling them for less than they cost to make, so they intentionally hold down production so as not to lose too much money. Even so, they're still $3000 or so more expensive than their non-hybrid twins, which takes 10 or so years to make up in better gas mileage for the average owner. They can't charge more, because then the demand drops way off, but they can't charge less either or they'll lose their shirts on the deal. Before hybrids really "work" from an economics standpoint, gas will have to get much more expensive, or battery technology has to get much better and cheaper.
Originally posted by PNG
Nothing will displace it until it makes financial sense, and even with gas at $3 a gallon, there's no alternative on the horizon that does. Once somebody can make money on an alternative fuel without needing a massive handout from the government to do it, things will change by themselves.
Nothing will displace it until it makes financial sense, and even with gas at $3 a gallon, there's no alternative on the horizon that does. Once somebody can make money on an alternative fuel without needing a massive handout from the government to do it, things will change by themselves.
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It takes one gallon of gas to power a 3000+ lb. SUV for oh say 16 miles for what... about $3.40? Gas is by far the cheapest source of energy we have. Personally, I'm all about alternative energy. I want to see Mr. Fusion (think Back to the Future) and the day where I can **** into my car and have it seperate the H's and the O's to power my car. Realistically I don't think any of this is going to happen anytime soon. The US already pays some of the lowest prices for oil, we've been spoiled for far too long. Yes gas prices going up sucks big time, but it's been a long way coming. Why are gas prices going up? Because demand in China is rising. Why is demand rising? China is finally being modernized? Why now? Because it's been screwed over by imperialist powers and not so practical Western influences (Communism). Necessity is the mother of all invention. Yes things suck now, but in all likelihood it's going to get worse before it gets better.
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just to let you all know, it's a losing battle we're fighting, there are no such thing as democracy... as long as corruption still exist, our voices will never be heard... but then again, if a democrate had won the presidency election, it might have been a different story.. just maybe....
what's funny is that when bush got elected, the president salary jumped from "$151,800 up to "$400,000"... but still that isn;t much, so... it is only obvious that he could make some cash on the side..///
what's funny is that when bush got elected, the president salary jumped from "$151,800 up to "$400,000"... but still that isn;t much, so... it is only obvious that he could make some cash on the side..///