nsn240

this thread is pretty interesting... i dont think i'll ever do an sr, rb or whatever swap just cause i'd hate to have my car disable for that long and all the legal ****. I sounds like the KA can be pretty beastly either N/A or F/I. I like the idea of having the low-end, and the quick response of an N/A. But if you built your engine right in a F/I car, you could make up for some of the spool time/ lack of power, right?

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

I agree with you I defenitely don't want this thread to turn into a cat fight.........
Posting a poll doesn't get people to speak there thoughts on the matter, it just complies with some ones basic opinion.
Personally over the course of the last ten years I've seen that turbo charging has become the "IN THING". Yet only a few of many turbo fanatics really go boosted. The high cost of components and internals that it cost to "really" get you to boost to extremes usually cost about $10,000.00, and that is if you plan to boost over 18psi, "forged internals and the works".......
I think alot of people that do plan to go boosted don't realize the significance in cost that it takes to build a boosted monster.
When infact someone spent the money on swapping they could of infact just done EMS, and internal modifications to a High displacement 4banger for about the same cost as the s14/SR swap that hasn't even been properly boosted "yet".
My point being there are all these people throwing away there USDM KA's before even doing research, and to be honest it makes me sad. Many people buy SR's before they even realize what the fu$% kind of boost that they will really be getting from it, to turbo is easy, and is convenient power, rather than researching and developing where true power comes from within the mechanics and EMS of the engine.
I read books on thermal dynamics and I look at dyno's of boosted and N/A. I tend to like the smooth curve of an N/A power band and I love the way N/A sounds when you let the RPM's high rev, just my opinion. Turbo makes to much of a vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv psssst sound kind of annoys me.
But like I have said, yeah I do want a KA24det for the track as well, just to kick some V8 ***. But from what I understand of N/A is that it can handle much more long gevity and performance than F/I. If you want some cheap convenient F/I get some progressive NOS for an internally built N/A. My point is there are many resources and alternatives I ask that people look into the long term investments that come with project builds.Wether it is F/I or N/A, I am not here to be one sided.
I want youngsters that come to these forums that there are other alternatives than just getting boosted and blown.

I'm with Stupid

I think you guys are overly generalizing a tad by saying everybody with sr's are ka-t's are just doing the "in thing." I mean not everbody is content with 180whp from a n/a dohc ka that cost the same as a more powerful turbo set up. People are using what works, not picking something just to be different and not do the "in thing." And to be honest most of the assumptions and comments a few of you guys are making are just plain WRONG. Especially the myths you guys believe about low end/top end power and turbo lag. I also wanna say I'm not trying to start anything, but I ALSO don't want new youngsters coming to this site and believing all this to be fact. And I'd like to see some N/A KA's so build them already and stop just talking about them on the internet; talk is cheap, go do it and post some dynos! :P

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

On another note talk is cheap but every product I have purchased I have shown in one thread or another, I defenitely back up my shiat.
One thing I dont think you realize I'm With Stupid most boosted turbo engines you will see the power band jump up faster within the 3000RPM to 6500RPM range. At lower idle there is resistance between the turbo and engine in the mani, the more intense the heat the greater the spool, "associated at higher rev and LARGER FUEL DUMPS". I can gaurantee when the engine is at idle it produces the least amount of heat. The engine SR in particular doesn't dump as much fuel at lets say 1200 RPM then it would at lets say 2200rpm, fuel, rpm rate, compression, and model of turbo are key factors in your spool time...........
How bout this........ rent the HONDA TYPE R VIDEO, now I'm not a honda guy at all but the video proved that a 205CHP Silvia, got it's *** whooped by a 190CHP Integra Type R in the 1/4mile, "OH DID I MENTION IT WAS N/A". Those are facts without the DYNO, look up the 1/4mile times if you doubt it.........
FACTS!!!!!!!! Not B.S.............

I'm with Stupid

I didn't say, or even mean to imply, you didn't. I just really do want to see it. I like modded cars, what's the big deal?

No not really, my sr builds the most from 2500 to 3500 and then gradually increases to 5 grand. But ofcoarse that's on a dyno without real world load so lag is exagerated. But my point was for real world passing, on say a highway, (without downshifting) a turbo will have better low end.

In what sense are you talking about heat? Because the hottest my engine EVER gets is at idle.

Ever notice how the type-r got killed off the line by a heavier car? Could that be turbo torque? But anyway you wanna look at it, if that video is your metaphor for n/a's edge over f/i then any furthur discussion is just pointless. I bet that type-r could beat a turbo peterbilt too, but get it's *** kicked by a n/a elise!

Waynehead05

for a small turbo yes. one that would spool pretty quickly you could... such as stock and smaller. but most people go with larger aftermarket turbos and that's when you get into problems with lag at takeoff

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

"Exhaust" heat increases with higher RPM, and larger fuel dumps.
Idle heat is just caused from lack of the water pump sufficiently flowing coolant through the engine. Although coolant tempratures rise, exhaust heat remains low.

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

Thats not neccesarily true either that is like comparing a T28 to a T82. A T82 having a much larger turbine will spool more psi sooner just due to the fact that it has a larger turbine and housing than a T28. Bigger is always better when it comes to turbo's and boosting. Smaller turbo's are just more economical as far as fuel economy at low boost.
Infact one larger turbo is better than going twin turbo as well. One larger turbo can focus on the exhaust heat coming from lets say 4 or 6 cylinders when compared to 2 or 3 cylinders per turbo.
When you look at most guys that hit the track for example the 200sx with the RB26det. The whole turbo system was redone to fit one larger more massive turbo rather than 2. A T82 was used, and I believe it is the worlds fastest 200sx with a 1/4 mile time of a high 9 seconds.

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

Here is an N/A KA with progressive nos check out the 1/4mile time........http://www.hybridka.com/misc/steve.wmv
Found the one on the single turbo RB it is actually runnin' 8's........http://www.exvitermini.com/movies110...ombatFinal.avi

I'm with Stupid

That's just plain wrong.

For high horsepower drag racing, yes. But not for better throttle response from a proper twin set up. Same is true about converting the RB26 to a single throttle body... Good for maximum high end hp, not good for the best possible throttle response.

CowboyTurbo

it occurs to me that F/I and N/A have their strengths in relatively different applications... would it be a correct assumption to make that going F/I is a bit easier in the short term (not including long-term maintenance 'n 'such) because more people are doing it hence there is more support for this method?

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

Almost all engines start off in N/A formats, so the support is relatively the same........
The RB was once manufactured as an N/A engine back in 1969 through prince motors it only made 155CHP in it's day and started as a 1.8 litre 6 banger. Holden now owns the rights to the RB. Prince motors was bought out by Nissan Datsun.
The CA, and SR also started in N/A before Nissan modified these engines for F/I.........
Basically the support for N/A and F/I are the same...........
The only difference in support is the type of internals you demand for the application.......
High performance N/A usually demands CR ratings of 9.1-13.1
F/I usually runs 8.1-9.8 CR rating...........
Other than that the only difference is in bolt on apps between N/A and F/I.....
The only problem with the KA as F/I is that as a USDM it wasn't ever manufactured as an F/I through Nissan.....

CowboyTurbo

I think what I was trying to say is more that since F/I is so popular, it's easier to get info about how to do it and seems to be more accessible to those of us who aren't as knowledgeable (yes because we're lazy) about how to go about building up N/A

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

It's not being lazy people just wan't conventional, convenient power.

calidrifter

how is a jdm swap cheaper than a KA boild up last time I looked JDM swaps were illegal (at least in CA) so that means you have to pay the smog guy what 200 everytime they smog your car? so over a period of 6 yrs thats 600 dollars EXTRA to the cost of JDM engine. Don't get me wrong I would love ro have a JDM engine in my 240, but the high cost of the install, yes some of us can't drop 4k at the drop of a hat, and the habit of high heat that WILL eventually kill the engine have put me off on it.

Another point why do you have to go turbo last time I checked Superchargers did the same as turbos, I don't think anyone has been able to mate one to the KA yet but it is possible and with a SC you get even HP distributed throughout the RPM range.


Anyway I think that NA would be an easier buildup and WILL last longer than any turbo would. Also for those of you that don't have time for building the KA may I suggest heading to your local Community College. Most of them offer Industrial Tech classes and I'm sure they have an engine building class. Sign up for it that way you are a bit more obligated to go since it is school.