FuriousZ

iTrader: (1)

Can I run E 85 on my car?

I just noticed that a local gas station is selling it and its 100 octanes compared to 91 MAX! for our premium fuel.

I know it damages the rubber gas lines and affects aluminum and other metals .

But I would like to take advantage of the 100 octane and turn up the boost or just run safer.

I also know that it takes more fuel to run, so it decrease MPG. I don't care about the MPG.

Any words?

RickY

SmokedZenki

Well you are correct about all of that... E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline... and gasoline at the tanks around here already has 10% ethanol in it... so if you wanted to put like 2 or 3 gallons of E85 and then fill up the rest of the tank with 91 then that would raise your octance to prob like 95 or so.... this would be the safest mixture that i know of and the most i would try unless you want to convert your whole fuel system around to be e 85 compatible....
Eric

go for it just don't get greedy on the mixture...

hatrick6

huh, i've never heard of mixing gasoline and ethanol fuel, might want to research that before you do it. but plenty of guys mix 91 octane and 100 octane gasoline to make a 95-96 octane fuel.

fadedsilvia

yea if u want to run e85, definently need to update ur entire fuel system
u have to flow waaay more e85 since it has way less BTU's then 93 octagon gasoline
but it burns much faster, since it is 100+ octane therefore making more power
so it has its ups and its downs
all in all e85 really isnt a bad idea at all though, and if u say that mpg isnt a problem then id say its well worth the conversion

japanesenut

Does anyone have a math figure to base this theory on . i have been trying to figure out how many gallons of 110 to put with 89 to get around 93+ octane .

FuriousZ

iTrader: (1)

Well, I just went through a whole tank of a mixture of about 10% E85 gas. and 90 % Normal Gasoline.

I really liked the feel of the car.
It runs better, and has "kick."

I'm a pump another 10 % next time.


RickY

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

Parts for an E85 KA.

SR20det injectors

q45, z32, or walbro fuel pump

Disconnect all coolant lines from the intake manifold and TB.

Minimum of an SAFC is required to tune with sr20det injectors.

gasoline wide band o2, tune to 10.5:1 A/F ratio with a lambda of 7.5~8.0 at WOT

on an ethanol wide band o2 tune to 9.6:1 A/F ratio at WOT.

Retard timing 1 to 2 degrees on the distributor from stock base timing ( or where ever feels most comfortable).

It works, it has been done and I am working on this set up myself.

RMS13FU

^ Not correct

My 240SX is full time E85 since June 2007.

E85 does NOT hurt modern rubber fuel lines (anything after 1987).
E85 does NOT hurt aluminum parts.

To run E85 full time, you need SR injectors I am running E85 fuel and my only modifications were the 370CC injectors (stock is 270cc)..

That's it.

My Wideband numbers are dead on.

The Air/Fuel ratio is right were it ought to be, WOT is rich for power (12 and change), it idles around stoich, and cruises around 14... granted all these numbers are for normal fuel, because his wide band doesn't know the difference between E10 and E85, but it doesn't matter as the voltage the sensor puts out is the same.

You will lose gas mileage.

You will gain a broader torque curve.

Your exhaust tone will be different.

Basically, running E85 requires 30% more fuel than running "normal" Gasoline (E10)

Your Injectors will max out if you try to run straight E85 with 270cc injectors. If you run the 370cc injectors, your ECU will do the rest, but then you can't run normal gasoline, it will run too rich.

I daily drive a '98 KA24DE Frontier that I mix E85 and E10 in every time I fill up...

Running a mix of E10 (normal Pump Gas) and E85 is very do-able. I run a mix of about 5 gallons of E85 in a tank with 10 gallons of E10 (87 Octane). This gives me a mix of about E34 and 93 Octane (in the summer).

Interested in Mixing?
Try out my Mix Spreadsheet:
EDIT: Link Deleted

If you try to mix too much E85 in with the E10, you WILL run out of injector pulse width and the engine will bog under heavy acceleration (about E60 in my Frontier).


Go Green, gain some power, burn booze and make your exhaust smell like a bar...

240smoke

I have 93 octane gas available where I live. Actually one gas station offers 94 octane. What would be the benefit of running E85 in my SR if I already have 94 available?

RMS13FU

well, you can mix some for higher octane...

E85 is less detonation prone than gasoline, it cools the intake charge.....

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

PFFFT....
Have a dyno to prove you don't need a safc to tune it with. I bet your making less power, just installing the injectors without a sufficient tune. Having the A/Fr on a gasoline wide band tuned to 10.5:1 with a .75 lambda actually will raise cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure is what makes power with E85. Just installing sr20det injectors would put A/Fr's on the gasoline wide band between a 11.4:1 at idle which wont change power output, just the knock and ping characteristics. It won't work as a performance enhancement.

If you plan on adjusting for more power other than what the stock ecu offers you will need a safc, you will also need a higher PSI fuel pump. Reason for the fuel pump is to up the static fuel rail pressure so that the injectors do less work at shorter pulse width. Sr injectors will run between a 60%~65% duty cycle with stock ecu tune and a lousy PSIG. This means in order to atomize more effeciently manifold pressure at a lower duty cycle needs to be higher.

The reason behind disconnecting the coolant lines to the intake manifold, is because of the vapor point of ethanol, compared to gasoline. Gasoline uses the warm air to atomize and mix, E85 the air actually needs to be cooler because of it's vapor point. Also air is denser which is good for power, bad for cold weather start up.

Sure you can just add injectors if all you want to do is daily drive around town all day, it's definitely not accurate, it's definitely not a performance enhancement either.

The corrosive properties of E85 will corrode the gas tank, and it will make rubber brittle. If it was 100% ethanol without any fuel it would do alot more damage faster.

RMS13FU

Incorrect.

The wideband doesn't know if you are running gasoline, or E85, it is only looking at a voltage.

You DO NOT need a wide-band "calibrated for E85" to check your AFR.

You can tune using the same numbers displayed on the Wideband for gasoline. The sensor puts out the same voltages.


SAFC is a poor excuse for proper ECU tuning. I run a BME /Q-Garage ECU (I'm BME, my tuning buddy is Q-Garage.. I build'em, he tunes'em)

We tuned the car post E85 conversion using his Innovate LM-1 and NISTUNE realtime map tracking.

The Lambdas were dead on and the Maps were right where he wanted them.. and we have daughterboarded and tuned 90% of the Turbo KA's in Houston. The injectors never topped 85% duty cycle under high loads at stock fuel pressures.

But it is not needed. I agree that the coolant delete is a good thing, even on a gas car, but to run E85, it isn't needed. I have driving my 240SX in 30 degree temps, it takes about 5 revolutions of the motor to fire off when it is cold...

I don't daily drive my 240 anymore, and haven't for 7 years.. when I pull it out, it is to run it hard and cruise... I stated above, converting to E85 for daily driver use is not a great Idea, your fuel mileage drops 30% if you drive it nice.. if you drive it like you stole it, it is down around 35%...

The car runs stronger than it ever did on gasoline.. did I dyno it? nope... I don't have the time or money to **** away on numbers that mean little to me...

INCORRECT. old myth...

Source: http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Here you go.. Video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/HuOs1yap8mU...b1b1b1&color2=

You should research E85 outside the Nissan world... Subaru guys have been playing with it forever with no ill effects...


Vinnie, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this... it isn't worth our time or the site's bandwidth.

I invite you in express your inputs and theories over here: http://e85forum.com/index.php

or here
http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php

Both are excellent sources of information from long time running E85 guys...

and as they say in the old days... do knock it 'til ya try it...

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

I never said you need a wide band calibrated for E85, if you tune E85 on a gasoline wide band, or stock gasoline OEM narrow band your target A/Fr is 10.5:1, it could be as high as 11.6.1 but then that is lean for E85, don't make me pull out the E85 performance hand book on you. The huge difference is that the target A/Fr that the ecu looks for on gasoline is 14.5:1~14.7:1, true target that will never be reached is 15.2:1 (stoich is 14.7:1 for gasoline). The difference in energy is why pulse width is adjusted so on a narrow band using E85 the ecu should be reading 10.5:1 or there are some serious tuning issues.



SAFC is tuning none the less and regardless of your BME ecu's I'll out perform your tune with the stock ecu and adjustments with the SAFC. Just like I've made a fool of JWT tunes with my SAFC tuning.

You should be keeping injector duty cycle no more than 78%~80% duty cycle, all injector coils start to burn up at 80%. Shows what you know, I still say raising manifold PSI, and using lower duty cycle/ pulse width is the way to go. You should know this tuning ecu's.


You claim you tune ecu's, and you don't care to match an engines efficiencies of A/fr's to it's RPM range. Something is seriously wrong if you can't spend $55 to $100 on a baseline dyno run, and people would heavily invest in your tuning ability.

To further make this more complicated I took a quote of mine from fresh alloy on the discussion of E85 and it's energy density compared to 89 Octane, 110 Octane and E85. I bet you can't even figure out why the equation is the way it is and what it's purpose is on the stoich measurement.


You sir are INCORRECT

RMS13FU

Until you pour in a tank and try it, you have theories... which is great... I guess I'll go have some fun in my E85 burning 240SX instead of arguing a point with someone who has never dumped it in their tank...

That is one thing I have discovered about this forum.. if anyone disagrees with your theory, you will just hammer them until they give up and leave. Congrats, you have succeeded again.

Dyno time, yeah, I'd love too... but I have more important things to do like enjoy what little free time I have with my wife, work, and get my Master's degree... On a single income Family...

$55 to $100 for an hour may not seem like much to you, congrats... I have better things to do with that money...

We ran my car on the road, at varying loads, and checked the AFR constantly... we were happy with the numbers that came out... Q-Garage has never never destroyed the many drifting KA-T's running our ECU's, so I'd say there is a good chance he has a grasp on what a good tune is.

We also figured out how to get around the 68 mph rich program that S13's have.... (you hit 68 MPH, the ECU goes Open Loop rich)

JWT is substandard, they sell cookie cutter programs with baseline adjustments, they are not tuned to any specific car/modifications... and they charge way too much for it...

An SAFC just fools the ECU by altering inputs too it... it is a crutch... better the JWT? probably... I don't doubt that.

The Injectors never topped 85%... running 80% or more MAY cause the injectors to burn out.. yup, I know that... but have you Ever checked a stock KA with 270cc injectors? You can clear 85% duty cycle... easy...

Nice equation... Once again.. Nice Theory... I'm not going to try at 6:30 in the morning

Listen man.. I'll step off your forum, you are the theory king... congratulations.

Feel free to ban/delete me account.

The original poster asked a simple question "Can he run E85 in his 240SX"

the Answer is YES... is he going for Max Power, Max Torque? I'm thinking probably not.. can he successfully run it on the street? Absolutely.

Good day...

BigVinnie

iTrader: (2)

This is way beyond theory man. What you don't seem to understand is that this is the same carbon copy I took from some one else, Identical for it's information, and that is how I am building it. Saying I am incorrect is not correct coming from how you chose to build things, and how numerous others chose to do there KA ethanol engine build. This isn't rocket science, and yes what I stated is better then just slapping in some injectors. That is why calling shots out at people and calling them incorrect does not make you right.

The purpose of a 10.5:1 A/Fr is to make more power than gasoline fuel based on the burn rate. If you are any leaner than the 11.1:1, your engine would be making less power than gasoline 110 octane, and making consistent power as if it were 91 octane. An engine would also be consuming more E85 than gasoline, so for power purpose and consumption the objective is to shoot for a 10.5:1. That is why it is important to tune accordingly, which you simply can not do just installing injectors. That was the purpose of the formula that I posted in the above post, that isn't theory, that is calculated truth, based on burn rates.

Q&A facts on tuning E85.
http://www.raceone85.com/