RS13

My sister just bought a 98 Integra type R (yes a real type r not just with a sticker) off of one of her friends. It has somekind of coilovers (dunno which ones kinda rusted due to havin them for 5 years) and 16's with kumho 712 rubber. Anyways it handles real nice and i was wondering if a S14 240SX will handle better stock or what will i have to do.
I know its a personal opinion question but just wanted to know ur thoughts.

l2aine

It's kind of hard to compare the two because they're so different - one's a 1.8 with VTEC (high revver), one's a 2.4 torquer, one's FWD, one's RWD, one's a hatch, one's a coupe... the closest I can come to that is my S14 and my friend's 97 LS. His LS has AGX's and generic coilovers on all fours, plus 17" R-1's on Dunlops. I have Tein S-tech's and KYB GR-2's, stock wheels, stock sized rubber.

When we went on a run in the mountains, we went halfway with him leading, then halfway with me leading, and afterward when we talked about it he said his car felt like it was understeering, and that was the reason why I'd pull away from him on corner exits. Then again he seemed to be able to take corners faster - I don't know if it was his lower profile tires and suspension doing the trick, or my small fear back then of spinning out in a RWD (I barely had my car for a week).

About a month later I got to drive his car on the same mountain during similar conditions, and his car felt pretty good on high-speed turns, but - like he mentioned - during heavy braking entering corners it felt like the front end of the Integ would dive pretty low; his understeer comment was also valid. However it did feel a little slow coming out of the corner as well (maybe the VTEC makes up for that). However personal opinion says that I feel like the S14 is more balanced overall. I particularly like how I can get on the gas coming out of corners, whereas in the Integ I couldn't go full on while turning because the front end would push.

Bear in mind, I'm sure we could have altered the handling of the Integ a little bit by playing with the adjustable AGX's. But AGX's cost more than GR-2's, so it's give/take.

With a decent set of tires and Whiteline's or Eibachs, you should be able to keep up with the Type-R in turns, but that VTEC will give you a run on the straights.

drnovascotia

Rainy's a machine

my opinion stock 240's are better, and RWD baby

But Rainy did well.

Dr.

l2aine

that's what happens when I haven't been on the boards for over a week

Stock for stock I'd put $$ on a 240 over an Integra too... and not just because I'm a 240 owner, but because performance-wise RWDs have either more potential or more advantage. For example, FWD's are jumping up and down over 8 second 1/4 mile drag runs.

RWDs did that before there were 240's

Dounveeme

you vs. a real type-r is hard to say. if your a skilled driver and your cars in good shape you could keep up in the corners maybe. those type-r's are very still and made for that kind of driving. alot of people think the type-r and think they are fast as hell but they arent all that fast its all handling in that car. if the type-r is in good condition have fun tryin to stay close in the corners is its a good driver. with a lil modding of your car you should have no problem at all.
its a toss up i guess the r's are awsome cornering cars but so is a well balanced rwd sports car so i yea

emericanchaos

if you know how to drive your RWD you should end up ahead. it would take a highly skilled driver in a FWD to surpass a moderately skilled RWD driver.

the difference is in the layout. fwd cars are inherently harder to push hard in a turn because they want to plow to the outside. going hard into a corner with a rwd should make the rear slip some as you go through and balance out some of the understeer cause by your high entry speed.

Catharsis

stock for stock a ITR will pull higher lateral G's therefore on the same course with the same driver driving at the maximum speed allowed by the limits of traction the ITR will pull a faster lap time.

i will bust out the tech later if you feel like a battle

Dounveeme

thats pretty much what i was thinking. itr's are build for that kinda stuff. you cant just take a gsr and put itr parts on it and have the same performance the whole chassis is built stiffer from factory.
i know this stuff i was gonna get a teg before i got offered my s13

emericanchaos

i'm actually interested in the tech behind it. to me it doesn't really matter what honda intended because the layout is still glaring against it. i would say it's a good front drive car for twisties. but i would never say it will do better then a car like the 240. not when the 240 is intended for twisties and has the better layout for controlling the vehicle in corners.

also we're not talking about the same driver in both cars and the techniques to control a front drive car are a bit different and in my opinion harder to master then rear drive.

sr20det power

thing about the type r is that u can gas it in the corners, not much but still can and if u try that in a 240 the back end will whip out as u probably already know. the type-r is said to have the best handling of any ff car ever made. stock for stock the type-r could probably take it since it has more power with good handling even tho the 240 has great handling out the door it lacks the power. the type-r is lighter, not much torque but when racing the person drivin will keep it in the high revs and vtec range where the power is and it handles great, better brakes. especially if the s14 is stock and the type r has some mods i dont believe the s14 would win.
i saw a best motoring video of a type-r against a zenki s14 and the s14 took it off the start but once it got the revs goin the type-r passed it up, keep in mind this was in japan so the type-r has 220hp B18C and the s14 has a 220hp sr20det
my opinion is that you will need some good tires, some more power, and good brakes to be able to beat the type-r, along with some skill

my opinion dont flame me for pickin a honda i happen to like hondas

badman70_1

no offense Raine, but an LS with generic coilovers and agx's is definitely not a Type R, totally different suspension parts. i'd have to pick the Acura. if he said an LS or SE then it would be different. my other car is a modded Integra GSR, it handles great.....now just gotta get that supercharger , but if you put enough money into either car, one will out perform the other.........just curious, how much did she get the R for?

kcnoir

To thread question:

Just my personal opinion. Generally speaking, I think it's very hard for a stock US spec S14 to outrun a stock US spec ITR if both are pushed to the limit.

Here's the reason why I thought that way. I had a friend who bought an ITR new in '97. He brought the stocker to a track for a day of race session the same year, and ranked 5th out of 35 at the end of the day. There were some S13s & S14s, but only one S14 ranked higher. And that holy S14 had 400hp... w/ complete suspension upgrade including full coil-over.

Of course drivers' skill was a reason, but my friend was only a novice racer, plus the ITR was his first manual car. So I think it'd be fair to say so... With that said, this happened on a race track, and I believe stock 240sx can still outrun stock ITR under certain conditions.

Just personal opinion, no flames here. I'm a die-hard 240sx lover, even an ITR can't win me over my stock S13.

l2aine

None taken. Everyone's entitled to their opinions =)

And yes, the car I drove wasn't a Type-R, but one thing that should be pointed out is that the Type-R is like a "special edition" compared to an S14 - even the SE. Nissan didn't tune the U.S. spec car with performance as the primary goal, unlike Honda did with the Type-R.

And as SR20det power pointed out, the Type-R is lighter with more power from the start... but I disagree with the "rear end will whip out" because it's not like the S14 is so unpredictable that if you jab the gas all of a sudden you're facing the wrong way. Sure you can gas an FWD in a corner, but then it has it's limits too i.e. too much gas = understeer when you're talking FF's.

Anyhow, I still stick with what I said in my previous post about "the S14 being more balanced overall" but I'll agree that STOCK FOR STOCK the Type-R is only better by the numbers because Type-R models were put together with "track" in mind.

Catharsis

ok here comes the tech


the amximum speed you can take a corner is:

15GR=MPH(SQUARED)

G= the % of a lateral G a car can pull
R= Radius of the corner

so for ease we will say that a car pulls 1g and is going around a 130r corner

so driveing tht line the car could go at a maximum speed of

15x1x103=MPH x MPH
1545=MPH x MPH
39.3=mph

this is the average speed throgh out a corner using 100 percnt of the tires grip.

in a stock to stock race with a usdm ITR and a usdm s14 an ITR will win assuming all conditions are the same driver line driver etc.
there is no debate on this either it is a closed case.

l2aine

...closed up until the "assuming all conditions are the same... etc." part, because I'm sure you know as well as I that conditions are never ever "the same"

Interesting tech there though. nice!