*Secondary Butterflys* PICS?????
04-08-2005, 07:33 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Reading,PA 19606
Posts: 393
*Secondary Butterflys* PICS?????
I have my intake mainfold off and i herd about removing the secondary butterfly for better air flow and hp but would this also cause it to run rough idle then??? true?
I have the pic posted because Im not sure what all needs to be removed.. I guess just so those plates inside the intake ports held in by a rod with screws... correct??
I have the pic posted because Im not sure what all needs to be removed.. I guess just so those plates inside the intake ports held in by a rod with screws... correct??
04-08-2005, 11:50 PM
#3
Contributing Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: arlington texas
Posts: 593
You can feel the power from 4000 rpm on. The idle is a little bumpy, However there is at least 6 hourse power gain you can feel!
the removal:
First you have to remove the injector rail, and all the other top end attachments....throttle cable etc.... and remove the upper intake tract. NOTE: you will need a new intake gasket kit...so be warned.
Once you get your upper intake tract off, you have to remove the c-clip that retains the entire assembly on....and then remove the vacuum actuator. Next, in the middle of number 2 and 3 cylinder, there's a set-scew that keep the entire tract in position. Remove this phillips screw.
Next, you have to use a fine phillips screwdriver, and lightly "tap" the end with as mall mallet to break free the loctite type material on the tiny little butterfly screws...and remove each one. (2 per butterfly.) Next is the difficult part...as I found it somewhat tuff to remove. I lubed it well, and sanded the shaft....but it took some grunt, and tiny grinding of the shaft to physically pull it out.(I bent it a little as I tapped to get the screws out....it's pretty easy to bend this long shaft.)
The shaft pulled out in one long (about 14" long) piece. It's hooped after you remove it...so don't be planning to reuse it.
NOTE: Since there's a horizontally bored hole from cylinder to cylinder, you might have to reseal up the holes with either welding or epoxy.
Or go the way i did and just replace the intake with a 1995-98 they came without the secondary butterfly.
the removal:
First you have to remove the injector rail, and all the other top end attachments....throttle cable etc.... and remove the upper intake tract. NOTE: you will need a new intake gasket kit...so be warned.
Once you get your upper intake tract off, you have to remove the c-clip that retains the entire assembly on....and then remove the vacuum actuator. Next, in the middle of number 2 and 3 cylinder, there's a set-scew that keep the entire tract in position. Remove this phillips screw.
Next, you have to use a fine phillips screwdriver, and lightly "tap" the end with as mall mallet to break free the loctite type material on the tiny little butterfly screws...and remove each one. (2 per butterfly.) Next is the difficult part...as I found it somewhat tuff to remove. I lubed it well, and sanded the shaft....but it took some grunt, and tiny grinding of the shaft to physically pull it out.(I bent it a little as I tapped to get the screws out....it's pretty easy to bend this long shaft.)
The shaft pulled out in one long (about 14" long) piece. It's hooped after you remove it...so don't be planning to reuse it.
NOTE: Since there's a horizontally bored hole from cylinder to cylinder, you might have to reseal up the holes with either welding or epoxy.
Or go the way i did and just replace the intake with a 1995-98 they came without the secondary butterfly.
04-10-2005, 03:30 AM
#6
you should really think about if you really want to remove them. the reason many people seem to get better performance afterward is because they were not functioning properly to begin with.
their purpose is to add more swirl to the air before entering the combustion chamber. this swirl allows better atomization of the gas as it enters the air stream. at idle/slow speeds this is beneficial. in cold weather its really important as cold dense air doesnt mix well when the fuel is injected. this all inportant swirl control valve also contributes to the ka's low end.
so yes removing them will improve the top end as stated before. but its a trade off. imho unless you have lots of mods or are going turbo, its not really worth it. but hey if you have access to a dyno, then test it out by doing a before and after test to see what your gains are. then post here so we all will know.
their purpose is to add more swirl to the air before entering the combustion chamber. this swirl allows better atomization of the gas as it enters the air stream. at idle/slow speeds this is beneficial. in cold weather its really important as cold dense air doesnt mix well when the fuel is injected. this all inportant swirl control valve also contributes to the ka's low end.
so yes removing them will improve the top end as stated before. but its a trade off. imho unless you have lots of mods or are going turbo, its not really worth it. but hey if you have access to a dyno, then test it out by doing a before and after test to see what your gains are. then post here so we all will know.
04-13-2005, 07:16 PM
#7
Originally posted by dkdeleon
Or go the way i did and just replace the intake with a 1995-98 they came without the secondary butterfly.
Or go the way i did and just replace the intake with a 1995-98 they came without the secondary butterfly.
04-13-2005, 07:19 PM
#8
Originally posted by eddiec
you should really think about if you really want to remove them. the reason many people seem to get better performance afterward is because they were not functioning properly to begin with.
their purpose is to add more swirl to the air before entering the combustion chamber. this swirl allows better atomization of the gas as it enters the air stream. at idle/slow speeds this is beneficial. in cold weather its really important as cold dense air doesnt mix well when the fuel is injected. this all inportant swirl control valve also contributes to the ka's low end.
so yes removing them will improve the top end as stated before. but its a trade off. imho unless you have lots of mods or are going turbo, its not really worth it. but hey if you have access to a dyno, then test it out by doing a before and after test to see what your gains are. then post here so we all will know.
you should really think about if you really want to remove them. the reason many people seem to get better performance afterward is because they were not functioning properly to begin with.
their purpose is to add more swirl to the air before entering the combustion chamber. this swirl allows better atomization of the gas as it enters the air stream. at idle/slow speeds this is beneficial. in cold weather its really important as cold dense air doesnt mix well when the fuel is injected. this all inportant swirl control valve also contributes to the ka's low end.
so yes removing them will improve the top end as stated before. but its a trade off. imho unless you have lots of mods or are going turbo, its not really worth it. but hey if you have access to a dyno, then test it out by doing a before and after test to see what your gains are. then post here so we all will know.
I mean atomization.....LOL
To fix the rough idle advance the timing about three degress for a total of 23btdc, stock btdc is already at 20. This will allow the chamber to burn hotter, get more hp, and prevent the rough low idle......
Last edited by BigVinnie; 04-13-2005 at 09:45 PM.
04-14-2005, 11:14 AM
#9
Originally posted by BigVinnie
Fu$kit remove the GDAMN secondaries and port the crap out of yur mani and head
Fu$kit remove the GDAMN secondaries and port the crap out of yur mani and head
and btw obdII started in 95.
04-14-2005, 11:42 AM
#10
Originally posted by eddiec
your sage advice will only lead to even more stagnant air flow. thereby enhancing the problem even further. thats real good advice. but wait according to you all we need are forged internals and are problems are solved. you really should go educate yourself instead of recirculating misinformation.
and btw obdII started in 95.
your sage advice will only lead to even more stagnant air flow. thereby enhancing the problem even further. thats real good advice. but wait according to you all we need are forged internals and are problems are solved. you really should go educate yourself instead of recirculating misinformation.
and btw obdII started in 95.
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.....
Sorry if you felt offended by the porting comment, but what I gave was some of my advice to a little tunning, shure other options may be needed to be implicated, but then again I am a simple guy..........
All I give are options, not a direct method, most of the people here are noobs, I give a small piece of information it is there job to do the research, especially if they chose to tune thier own vehicle.............
If you couldn't tell the porting comment was a bit of sarcasim, but at the same time if used in the correct method to achieving HP it can work pretty well.........
I am here to learn in the forums as I hope that is what you are here for also........
I appoligize for my outlandish statement, didn't mean to **** you off. Lets both work together to make the correct fix.........
I would like to be productive rather than counter productive........
Agreed?
04-14-2005, 02:56 PM
#13
Contributing Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: knoxville tn
Posts: 999
i removed mine only because they actually hurt fuel atomization after having my intake ported and polished... the flow numbers were more eratic with them in there so the machine shop suggested removing them... flow increased dramatically...as i said when i was talking about the work done on my motor i would not suggest anyone who lives with below freezing weather to remove the secondary butterflies from the motor... i have very few freezing days here and i want as much power out of my motor as i ca get... i dont know how they would have worked with the stock manifold on my motor but i know after the head and manifold were flow tested as a unit the problems became quite clear... once the butterflies were removed there was better flow and less turbulance as the air fuel mixture went into the combustion chamber...
as i said for a stock application they might be a good idea or even a needed option... but in a hi hp higher revving motor like i have built... it was the log jam in my air fuel delivery system...
as i said for a stock application they might be a good idea or even a needed option... but in a hi hp higher revving motor like i have built... it was the log jam in my air fuel delivery system...