250 RWHP on a NA KA ->possible?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3
Ive got a High Compression KA NA motor. Here is the specs
11.5:1 Je Pistons
PDM cams, more aggresive than Don normally offers
Motec M4
Miezer Electric Water pump
Stock Intake manifold, no emission equipment
Ported and Polished head
These are the major mods that have been done to the engine. There is plenty more stuff on the engine, but its all bolt on. I've been working on this car and engine for a couple of years and it still doesn't run b/c i'm a college student. I will tell you some things that may be helpful. First if i had to do it all over again, I would first do alot more research, and would gone turbo. I've probably dropped over 8k( never really counted) on an engine( with the current mods it has) that will never make more than 220hp for several reasons. When I first started on the engine, SR swaps were becoming more popular, not main stream as they are today. There was a nice long discussion on which engine was better Turbo KA or SR. No one that I had heard of at the time was trying to even make a High compression KA at the time. There was one guy who buillt one up and was only making like 180hp at the wheels. When I started the build up, I found a local shop in town( they had a 300zx that ran 10's and was in all the magazines at the time) and gave them my head to port and polish. That was $1100. What did i get, i really don't know. If i would have taken my time i probably would have found a shop that would have given me more advice about what i needed to do. For instance, they would have bench flowed the heads for me, put over size values, then message the ports to get the best results for the horsepower levels that i was looking for. About the same time I got my head back, i went to PDM-racing and order some more aggresive cams that the stock valve springs could handle. I had to wait about another year before i could afford to build the bottom end. I took the engine to the same place that i got the head done, and then 8 months later, another $1500, and tons of hassel from the place, i got my bottom end back. What did i get, new pistons, rings, wrist pins, and bearings. I was still ignorant. Another year went by, the engine sat in my garage and then i was able to find a shell for the motor to go in. A completely stock 92 five speed with 92,000 on the OD and only $800. So far, that was the best deal. About the same time, i transfer to a real college ( Texas A&M ) and began getting an education in Mechanical Engineering. I joined Formula SAE and began learning about the science of cars ( stuff you don't learn from Sport Compact or Super Street). Well 3 years later, the only real smart decision that i;ve made with that 240 is buying a Motec M4 to control the engine. The motor is in the car, 70 percent on the engine harness is done, and the car still needs to be put back together. I'm curious to find how much power the car will make. I might put it through an engine simulation program that we have at school and share the results. When i graduate, i will finish the car ( enough to get it running) and finally be able to afford to road race the car, rather than just Auto_x them.
I've got big plans for the car, i'll just give you a taste, ( Vq35de swap, completely redesign the suspension system and that not even the crazy parts) If you have to ask why, because no one else has done this and b/c I have the knowledge and skills to accomplish this.
Vince
sorry for the long post,
11.5:1 Je Pistons
PDM cams, more aggresive than Don normally offers
Motec M4
Miezer Electric Water pump
Stock Intake manifold, no emission equipment
Ported and Polished head
These are the major mods that have been done to the engine. There is plenty more stuff on the engine, but its all bolt on. I've been working on this car and engine for a couple of years and it still doesn't run b/c i'm a college student. I will tell you some things that may be helpful. First if i had to do it all over again, I would first do alot more research, and would gone turbo. I've probably dropped over 8k( never really counted) on an engine( with the current mods it has) that will never make more than 220hp for several reasons. When I first started on the engine, SR swaps were becoming more popular, not main stream as they are today. There was a nice long discussion on which engine was better Turbo KA or SR. No one that I had heard of at the time was trying to even make a High compression KA at the time. There was one guy who buillt one up and was only making like 180hp at the wheels. When I started the build up, I found a local shop in town( they had a 300zx that ran 10's and was in all the magazines at the time) and gave them my head to port and polish. That was $1100. What did i get, i really don't know. If i would have taken my time i probably would have found a shop that would have given me more advice about what i needed to do. For instance, they would have bench flowed the heads for me, put over size values, then message the ports to get the best results for the horsepower levels that i was looking for. About the same time I got my head back, i went to PDM-racing and order some more aggresive cams that the stock valve springs could handle. I had to wait about another year before i could afford to build the bottom end. I took the engine to the same place that i got the head done, and then 8 months later, another $1500, and tons of hassel from the place, i got my bottom end back. What did i get, new pistons, rings, wrist pins, and bearings. I was still ignorant. Another year went by, the engine sat in my garage and then i was able to find a shell for the motor to go in. A completely stock 92 five speed with 92,000 on the OD and only $800. So far, that was the best deal. About the same time, i transfer to a real college ( Texas A&M ) and began getting an education in Mechanical Engineering. I joined Formula SAE and began learning about the science of cars ( stuff you don't learn from Sport Compact or Super Street). Well 3 years later, the only real smart decision that i;ve made with that 240 is buying a Motec M4 to control the engine. The motor is in the car, 70 percent on the engine harness is done, and the car still needs to be put back together. I'm curious to find how much power the car will make. I might put it through an engine simulation program that we have at school and share the results. When i graduate, i will finish the car ( enough to get it running) and finally be able to afford to road race the car, rather than just Auto_x them.
I've got big plans for the car, i'll just give you a taste, ( Vq35de swap, completely redesign the suspension system and that not even the crazy parts) If you have to ask why, because no one else has done this and b/c I have the knowledge and skills to accomplish this.
Vince
sorry for the long post,
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,515
From: West Covina/ Irvine
That' a lot of work man, but with knowledge in the Mechanical Engineering department, I know you'll do it. That's what I'm majoring in this coming Fall. Anyways, hope everything goes well for you.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 26
From: Ft. Collins
Originally posted by l2aine
well that happens to be the general answer because it makes sense taking into account how much money you'd have to spend on an N/A KA to get close to the stock power output of an S14 SR, or even a basic KAT. $8-$12k just for 250rwhp? $8-10k invested into a swap ($5500 tops) plus the extra $3k+ for mods would build one killer machine.
well that happens to be the general answer because it makes sense taking into account how much money you'd have to spend on an N/A KA to get close to the stock power output of an S14 SR, or even a basic KAT. $8-$12k just for 250rwhp? $8-10k invested into a swap ($5500 tops) plus the extra $3k+ for mods would build one killer machine.
Contributing Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,587
From: Socal, 909/626
Originally posted by B2119
Yes, financially it does make more sense, but what if you wanna race your car in the SCCA? They won't allow a turbo in IT racing, so that is your only choice!
Yes, financially it does make more sense, but what if you wanna race your car in the SCCA? They won't allow a turbo in IT racing, so that is your only choice!
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 26
From: Ft. Collins
In SCCA road racing, they don't allow turbos. Which is ghey. Except for some stock cars (evo, STI, SRT-4). You could probably run in ITE with an SR swap, which is a regional class developed for tuner cars. i have heard rumors that they might be starting a national tuner class, which would be cool.
Contributing Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,587
From: Socal, 909/626
Originally posted by B2119
In SCCA road racing, they don't allow turbos. Which is ghey. Except for some stock cars (evo, STI, SRT-4). You could probably run in ITE with an SR swap, which is a regional class developed for tuner cars. i have heard rumors that they might be starting a national tuner class, which would be cool.
In SCCA road racing, they don't allow turbos. Which is ghey. Except for some stock cars (evo, STI, SRT-4). You could probably run in ITE with an SR swap, which is a regional class developed for tuner cars. i have heard rumors that they might be starting a national tuner class, which would be cool.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 59
From: San Clemente , CA
The main reasons why I'd like to stay all motor is cause
#1. The engines usually sound a heck of a lot better (I love hearing more of the engine then the rushing wind from a turbo).
#2.N/A just seems like less of a hassle (As far as maintenance goes and all that goes).
#3. There's nothing like kicking another cars butt without a turbo (Especially cars that have bigger engines then you)... Anybody can put a turbo on something and make it quick... I See turbo as cheating (Kinda like nos).. I'm not knocking on turbo it's just an opinion... I wouldn't mind if my car was turbo, I'm just letting you guys know what I prefer.
#4. Smogging a turbo car= No way in heck (Unless the turbo is really the size of a snail shell
)
#5. Visual inspections from the cops.. Right when they see an intercooler or ask you to pop the hood and they see a turbo.. Your chances of getting a ticket will go up probably 98%
#6. Throttle response- Depending on the turbo size you loose T.R. dramatically. If you have an all motor car you really have 200hp all the time on tap.. In turbo you'll have it about 3 seconds (not literally, but there will be some lag) after you push in the gas, or rev the engine about five times to spool the turbo up. I don't like waiting.... When I an the power i want it know.. If i didn't I'd buy an automatic.
I'm not into max power or huge numbers. Give me at least 200-250 to the wheels and I'm a happy man.. If i did go turbo one of these days I'll get a tiny one just enough to get me into that range.. That way I won't sacrifice the stuff that I love and I won't break the bank doing it. I already know that getting in that range without a F.I. it's more of a challenge but I like challenges and like I said before " IT'S MORE ENJOYABLE BEATING OTHER CARS WITH ALL MOTOR ".... <END OF RANT>
#1. The engines usually sound a heck of a lot better (I love hearing more of the engine then the rushing wind from a turbo).
#2.N/A just seems like less of a hassle (As far as maintenance goes and all that goes).
#3. There's nothing like kicking another cars butt without a turbo (Especially cars that have bigger engines then you)... Anybody can put a turbo on something and make it quick... I See turbo as cheating (Kinda like nos).. I'm not knocking on turbo it's just an opinion... I wouldn't mind if my car was turbo, I'm just letting you guys know what I prefer.
#4. Smogging a turbo car= No way in heck (Unless the turbo is really the size of a snail shell
)#5. Visual inspections from the cops.. Right when they see an intercooler or ask you to pop the hood and they see a turbo.. Your chances of getting a ticket will go up probably 98%
#6. Throttle response- Depending on the turbo size you loose T.R. dramatically. If you have an all motor car you really have 200hp all the time on tap.. In turbo you'll have it about 3 seconds (not literally, but there will be some lag) after you push in the gas, or rev the engine about five times to spool the turbo up. I don't like waiting.... When I an the power i want it know.. If i didn't I'd buy an automatic.
I'm not into max power or huge numbers. Give me at least 200-250 to the wheels and I'm a happy man.. If i did go turbo one of these days I'll get a tiny one just enough to get me into that range.. That way I won't sacrifice the stuff that I love and I won't break the bank doing it. I already know that getting in that range without a F.I. it's more of a challenge but I like challenges and like I said before " IT'S MORE ENJOYABLE BEATING OTHER CARS WITH ALL MOTOR ".... <END OF RANT>
Contributing Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,587
From: Socal, 909/626
since forums are for discussing, here's my counter:
The main reasons why I'd like to go turbo instead of staying all motor is cause
#1. The engines usually sound a heck of a lot QUIETER (recirc. the blowoff into the intake and you can still run a larger exhaust with generally less exhaust noise than with n/a).
#2. N/A just seems like more of a hassle because you have to do more internal engine work (you'd have to do this for sure on an N/A KA24DE to think of pushing 200-250RWHP) compared to removing the bumper and installing a bolt-on FMIC.
#3. There's nothing like kicking another cars butt without a turbo (Especially cars that have bigger engines then you)... BUT it's also very satisfying killing a 5.7L V8 domestic with a 2.0L single turbo 4 cylinder. Do the math. If turbo's are like cheating, then you'd have to throw in variable valve timing as "cheating" as well... or why not even throw in EFI or ECUs? NOS is different because no car in the world came stock with NOS - it's a "temporary" power booster. The only place you'll see NOS is at the drags... it's impractical to use NOS on mountain runs, endurance racing, or anything that doesn't involve quick, sub 15 sec. or less competition. I wouldn't mind if my car was N/A, I'm just letting you guys know what I prefer too.
#4. Smogging a N/A car= not as easy as you'd think if you're pushing 250+RWHP. An N/A engine putting out that much HP would most definitely have many internal parts changes (As mentioned above), more fuel passing through the injectors (which are probably upgraded too), etc. Even if it's N/A, it's now a high power N/A tuned up from stock power numbers, which means a lot more fuel/air is going in and out of those cylinders, which theoretically means more exhaust gasses and if it isn't tuned crisp then I'll bet emissions is higher than allowable at that power level.
#5. Visual inspections from the cops.. Honestly, there are cops that know, but there are still cops that don't. That's not my arguement though. IMO if you don't drive like Paul Walker and don't "showoff" what your car has with double-wide body kits, big as exhausts, 12" subs, etc. then you won't get pulled over. A cop needs a reason to pull you over - believe it or not - and even if you have carbon fiber everything on the outside, if "visually" everything on the outside is legal, then there's no reason to be stopped.
#6. Throttle response- Depending on the turbo size you loose T.R. dramatically, but that's all on who builds the engine in the first place. It's possible to have 200-250RWHP from a turbocharged car with little or no lag on the low end. When you start talking 400+, then the need for a super large turbo can bring in the "turbo lag" arguement, but if you work with a properly sized turbocharger for the application and the engine's state of tune in mind, it's possible to put up big numbers and still have snappy gas pedal response. I've been in a 420FWHP 300ZX twin turbo before, and the engine weas tuned with the powerband in the low and midrange RPMs, and that gas pedal reacted more like a supercharged V8 than a super-lag giant turbo monster.
In conclusion, IMO 200-250RWHP isn't "max power" or a "huge number" unless you're talking N/A engines. Turbocharged engines can easily reach those numbers with much less modification and engine work than with an N/A. As for my arguement/opinion, it is solely based on comparing going all motor N/A with the 240SX KA24DE engine, compared to swapping to a turbocharged SR20DET, so before anyone responds to me with references to rotaries or what not, remember I'm stating MY OPINION based on KA24DET vs SR20DET. And just so Onyx doesn't think I'm trying to start a fight:
"IT'S MORE ENJOYABLE BEATING OTHER CARS. PERIOD. ".... <END OF RANT>
The main reasons why I'd like to go turbo instead of staying all motor is cause
#1. The engines usually sound a heck of a lot QUIETER (recirc. the blowoff into the intake and you can still run a larger exhaust with generally less exhaust noise than with n/a).
#2. N/A just seems like more of a hassle because you have to do more internal engine work (you'd have to do this for sure on an N/A KA24DE to think of pushing 200-250RWHP) compared to removing the bumper and installing a bolt-on FMIC.
#3. There's nothing like kicking another cars butt without a turbo (Especially cars that have bigger engines then you)... BUT it's also very satisfying killing a 5.7L V8 domestic with a 2.0L single turbo 4 cylinder. Do the math. If turbo's are like cheating, then you'd have to throw in variable valve timing as "cheating" as well... or why not even throw in EFI or ECUs? NOS is different because no car in the world came stock with NOS - it's a "temporary" power booster. The only place you'll see NOS is at the drags... it's impractical to use NOS on mountain runs, endurance racing, or anything that doesn't involve quick, sub 15 sec. or less competition. I wouldn't mind if my car was N/A, I'm just letting you guys know what I prefer too.
#4. Smogging a N/A car= not as easy as you'd think if you're pushing 250+RWHP. An N/A engine putting out that much HP would most definitely have many internal parts changes (As mentioned above), more fuel passing through the injectors (which are probably upgraded too), etc. Even if it's N/A, it's now a high power N/A tuned up from stock power numbers, which means a lot more fuel/air is going in and out of those cylinders, which theoretically means more exhaust gasses and if it isn't tuned crisp then I'll bet emissions is higher than allowable at that power level.
#5. Visual inspections from the cops.. Honestly, there are cops that know, but there are still cops that don't. That's not my arguement though. IMO if you don't drive like Paul Walker and don't "showoff" what your car has with double-wide body kits, big as exhausts, 12" subs, etc. then you won't get pulled over. A cop needs a reason to pull you over - believe it or not - and even if you have carbon fiber everything on the outside, if "visually" everything on the outside is legal, then there's no reason to be stopped.
#6. Throttle response- Depending on the turbo size you loose T.R. dramatically, but that's all on who builds the engine in the first place. It's possible to have 200-250RWHP from a turbocharged car with little or no lag on the low end. When you start talking 400+, then the need for a super large turbo can bring in the "turbo lag" arguement, but if you work with a properly sized turbocharger for the application and the engine's state of tune in mind, it's possible to put up big numbers and still have snappy gas pedal response. I've been in a 420FWHP 300ZX twin turbo before, and the engine weas tuned with the powerband in the low and midrange RPMs, and that gas pedal reacted more like a supercharged V8 than a super-lag giant turbo monster.
In conclusion, IMO 200-250RWHP isn't "max power" or a "huge number" unless you're talking N/A engines. Turbocharged engines can easily reach those numbers with much less modification and engine work than with an N/A. As for my arguement/opinion, it is solely based on comparing going all motor N/A with the 240SX KA24DE engine, compared to swapping to a turbocharged SR20DET, so before anyone responds to me with references to rotaries or what not, remember I'm stating MY OPINION based on KA24DET vs SR20DET. And just so Onyx doesn't think I'm trying to start a fight:
"IT'S MORE ENJOYABLE BEATING OTHER CARS. PERIOD. ".... <END OF RANT>
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 59
From: San Clemente , CA
Very valid points.. Don't worry I don't see your P.O.V as fighting words at all 
.. What I was talkin about was 200-50 N/A... I know Turbo can get way more with way less money.. Seriously though. Who do you know that went turbo and is satified with only 200-50 to the wheels lol? I can't think of anyone that I know.. That's why i said TR goes down. That's why at the end of my post I said that if i ever went turbo I'll get a tiny one just to get me to my mark.. That way my TR will basically not go down at all. The whole smog thing was just a bogus point I know a lot of people with all motor honda's (Prelude and ITR's) that will fail smog inna second.. I was thinking of something else but i forgot.. Instead of the smog thing I was gonna talk about the gas mileage... I drive 72 miles a day and I know If I had a turbo my MPG would go down (I'm poor so I need at much MPG as i can) =/.. Engine noise: The engine noise will only be super loud if you are driving like Paul walker everywhere you went... But when I do punch it i love the way an engine screams more then a turbo spooling (I think Thats way I love hearing F1 cars). N/A more of a hassle: The reason why I don't mind that Is cause I like cars.. I like getting dirty and in the mix with them... I think it's fun.. The reason why i said FI seems like cheating is cause basically the motor is getting help from something else to make it's power.. V-Tec and all those other Variable Valve timing stuff is great (I love high RPM Cars) plus the cams are part of the motor not something clinging to the side of the motor... WIthout cams a motor will not work.. Your car will run without a turbo (Even if it came turbo from the factory).. It might not run good but it'll still run.. Therefore it's not part of the motor... Piston/cams/Valves/etc are part of the engine (V-TEC involves the cam(s))...As far was beating V8's I've seen it done once again with a puny 1.8 LS/V-tec motor... WITH 2 PEOPLE IN THE CAR...Sure it wasn't 5.7 liter but it was a 4.8 liter GT mustang... That's not the point though...1.8's should never be able to beat 4.8liter V8's.... The best is when they ask "What do you have in that thing ?" And you can answer "1.8 liter (or whatever your displacement is) ALL MOTOR"... Saying all motor will chip at the persons pride and give them no excuses besides "I got my *** handed to me " They can't say "Well his/her car is super charged/turbo changed/ or nos powered... And that's a good feeling.. That's when you feel good about all the long hard hours you've spent building your car up... That same feeling can come from a FI car as well.. But it'll come from a completely different sourse (Porsche/Viper/Vette/etc).. They still get ashamed that they got delt with from a Turbo'd IL4
.. What I was talkin about was 200-50 N/A... I know Turbo can get way more with way less money.. Seriously though. Who do you know that went turbo and is satified with only 200-50 to the wheels lol? I can't think of anyone that I know.. That's why i said TR goes down. That's why at the end of my post I said that if i ever went turbo I'll get a tiny one just to get me to my mark.. That way my TR will basically not go down at all. The whole smog thing was just a bogus point I know a lot of people with all motor honda's (Prelude and ITR's) that will fail smog inna second.. I was thinking of something else but i forgot.. Instead of the smog thing I was gonna talk about the gas mileage... I drive 72 miles a day and I know If I had a turbo my MPG would go down (I'm poor so I need at much MPG as i can) =/.. Engine noise: The engine noise will only be super loud if you are driving like Paul walker everywhere you went... But when I do punch it i love the way an engine screams more then a turbo spooling (I think Thats way I love hearing F1 cars). N/A more of a hassle: The reason why I don't mind that Is cause I like cars.. I like getting dirty and in the mix with them... I think it's fun.. The reason why i said FI seems like cheating is cause basically the motor is getting help from something else to make it's power.. V-Tec and all those other Variable Valve timing stuff is great (I love high RPM Cars) plus the cams are part of the motor not something clinging to the side of the motor... WIthout cams a motor will not work.. Your car will run without a turbo (Even if it came turbo from the factory).. It might not run good but it'll still run.. Therefore it's not part of the motor... Piston/cams/Valves/etc are part of the engine (V-TEC involves the cam(s))...As far was beating V8's I've seen it done once again with a puny 1.8 LS/V-tec motor... WITH 2 PEOPLE IN THE CAR...Sure it wasn't 5.7 liter but it was a 4.8 liter GT mustang... That's not the point though...1.8's should never be able to beat 4.8liter V8's.... The best is when they ask "What do you have in that thing ?" And you can answer "1.8 liter (or whatever your displacement is) ALL MOTOR"... Saying all motor will chip at the persons pride and give them no excuses besides "I got my *** handed to me " They can't say "Well his/her car is super charged/turbo changed/ or nos powered... And that's a good feeling.. That's when you feel good about all the long hard hours you've spent building your car up... That same feeling can come from a FI car as well.. But it'll come from a completely different sourse (Porsche/Viper/Vette/etc).. They still get ashamed that they got delt with from a Turbo'd IL4
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,587
From: Socal, 909/626
...but then at the same time, you're telling me that if you went turbo, and you actually got a tiny turbo, that you'd be satisfied... knowing that with a little here and a little there you can have more power? You know you would want more 
BTW engine noise on a built N/A will be louder because the combustion sound etc. goes straight from the cylinder to the muffler. This is already a proven point as a turbo engine's sound does get muffled quite a bit since the exhaust and sound has to pass through a turbocharger before going to the exhaust. That info was straight from RS*R when I drilled them for a week about sound levels etc. on their Ex-Mag system.
Also your mileage will go down if you turbo, but not so bad compared to N/A because like you pointed out - N/A power is always there, whether you're on the gas or not, whereas turbo/superchargers only produce power when called upon - thus if you're left foot is light during normal, day to day driving, your mileage will be a lot better than with a high power N/A.
As for the "ALL MOTOR" thing, I dunno but personally I leave that to newb crowd. Bottom line is win or no win. If you had the least common sense driving a Mustang or other V8 and you engage in a race with a car that is commonly known as a low power 4 cylinder, then right from the start you've got more hardware than ***** because on any other day it's blatantly obvious that it's a mismatch. Now if the V8 loses to a commonly known low-power 4 cylinder, that's good enough to make them scratch their head, N/A or turbo - it doesn't matter.
If it makes someone feel better to claim "ALL MOTOR" as opposed to "TURBO/SUPER", then whatever floats their boat... but that added sense of cockiness (pride in building your engine or not, if you take joy in trying to belittle people by claiming that your all motor beat a muscle car, it's the same thing) always comes at a price - one day you'll end up mext to a stealhty supercharged Cobra or something. Then from here you can take the "hardware vs. *****" statement I said above and reverse it - you had the ***** to race someone with more hardware, and you lost. Now what? If it beats you, will you make the same excuses i.e. "well, he's a supercharged V8" or likewise?
I'll admit I was in that stage where it was all about all motor or what not, being faster than you, etc. but I've outgrown that. Now I just enjoy working on my car, turbo, super, n/a, or NOS. If I see a car, and it's got high power, I respect it. If I beat someone in a race, then good game - wave and drive away, no bragging necessary. Why should I have to brag in the first place? I'd rather let my driving do the talking, and leave the cockiness (or lack of ***** LOL) to the Honda/Acura crowd.
But that's just IMO.
Again.
BTW engine noise on a built N/A will be louder because the combustion sound etc. goes straight from the cylinder to the muffler. This is already a proven point as a turbo engine's sound does get muffled quite a bit since the exhaust and sound has to pass through a turbocharger before going to the exhaust. That info was straight from RS*R when I drilled them for a week about sound levels etc. on their Ex-Mag system.
Also your mileage will go down if you turbo, but not so bad compared to N/A because like you pointed out - N/A power is always there, whether you're on the gas or not, whereas turbo/superchargers only produce power when called upon - thus if you're left foot is light during normal, day to day driving, your mileage will be a lot better than with a high power N/A.
As for the "ALL MOTOR" thing, I dunno but personally I leave that to newb crowd. Bottom line is win or no win. If you had the least common sense driving a Mustang or other V8 and you engage in a race with a car that is commonly known as a low power 4 cylinder, then right from the start you've got more hardware than ***** because on any other day it's blatantly obvious that it's a mismatch. Now if the V8 loses to a commonly known low-power 4 cylinder, that's good enough to make them scratch their head, N/A or turbo - it doesn't matter.
If it makes someone feel better to claim "ALL MOTOR" as opposed to "TURBO/SUPER", then whatever floats their boat... but that added sense of cockiness (pride in building your engine or not, if you take joy in trying to belittle people by claiming that your all motor beat a muscle car, it's the same thing) always comes at a price - one day you'll end up mext to a stealhty supercharged Cobra or something. Then from here you can take the "hardware vs. *****" statement I said above and reverse it - you had the ***** to race someone with more hardware, and you lost. Now what? If it beats you, will you make the same excuses i.e. "well, he's a supercharged V8" or likewise?
I'll admit I was in that stage where it was all about all motor or what not, being faster than you, etc. but I've outgrown that. Now I just enjoy working on my car, turbo, super, n/a, or NOS. If I see a car, and it's got high power, I respect it. If I beat someone in a race, then good game - wave and drive away, no bragging necessary. Why should I have to brag in the first place? I'd rather let my driving do the talking, and leave the cockiness (or lack of ***** LOL) to the Honda/Acura crowd.
But that's just IMO.
Again.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 59
From: San Clemente , CA
Originally posted by l2aine
...but then at the same time, you're telling me that if you went turbo, and you actually got a tiny turbo, that you'd be satisfied... knowing that with a little here and a little there you can have more power? You know you would want more
BTW engine noise on a built N/A will be louder because the combustion sound etc. goes straight from the cylinder to the muffler. This is already a proven point as a turbo engine's sound does get muffled quite a bit since the exhaust and sound has to pass through a turbocharger before going to the exhaust. That info was straight from RS*R when I drilled them for a week about sound levels etc. on their Ex-Mag system.
Also your mileage will go down if you turbo, but not so bad compared to N/A because like you pointed out - N/A power is always there, whether you're on the gas or not, whereas turbo/superchargers only produce power when called upon - thus if you're left foot is light during normal, day to day driving, your mileage will be a lot better than with a high power N/A.
As for the "ALL MOTOR" thing, I dunno but personally I leave that to newb crowd. Bottom line is win or no win. If you had the least common sense driving a Mustang or other V8 and you engage in a race with a car that is commonly known as a low power 4 cylinder, then right from the start you've got more hardware than ***** because on any other day it's blatantly obvious that it's a mismatch. Now if the V8 loses to a commonly known low-power 4 cylinder, that's good enough to make them scratch their head, N/A or turbo - it doesn't matter.
If it makes someone feel better to claim "ALL MOTOR" as opposed to "TURBO/SUPER", then whatever floats their boat... but that added sense of cockiness (pride in building your engine or not, if you take joy in trying to belittle people by claiming that your all motor beat a muscle car, it's the same thing) always comes at a price - one day you'll end up mext to a stealhty supercharged Cobra or something. Then from here you can take the "hardware vs. *****" statement I said above and reverse it - you had the ***** to race someone with more hardware, and you lost. Now what? If it beats you, will you make the same excuses i.e. "well, he's a supercharged V8" or likewise?
I'll admit I was in that stage where it was all about all motor or what not, being faster than you, etc. but I've outgrown that. Now I just enjoy working on my car, turbo, super, n/a, or NOS. If I see a car, and it's got high power, I respect it. If I beat someone in a race, then good game - wave and drive away, no bragging necessary. Why should I have to brag in the first place? I'd rather let my driving do the talking, and leave the cockiness (or lack of ***** LOL) to the Honda/Acura crowd.
But that's just IMO.
Again.
...but then at the same time, you're telling me that if you went turbo, and you actually got a tiny turbo, that you'd be satisfied... knowing that with a little here and a little there you can have more power? You know you would want more
BTW engine noise on a built N/A will be louder because the combustion sound etc. goes straight from the cylinder to the muffler. This is already a proven point as a turbo engine's sound does get muffled quite a bit since the exhaust and sound has to pass through a turbocharger before going to the exhaust. That info was straight from RS*R when I drilled them for a week about sound levels etc. on their Ex-Mag system.
Also your mileage will go down if you turbo, but not so bad compared to N/A because like you pointed out - N/A power is always there, whether you're on the gas or not, whereas turbo/superchargers only produce power when called upon - thus if you're left foot is light during normal, day to day driving, your mileage will be a lot better than with a high power N/A.
As for the "ALL MOTOR" thing, I dunno but personally I leave that to newb crowd. Bottom line is win or no win. If you had the least common sense driving a Mustang or other V8 and you engage in a race with a car that is commonly known as a low power 4 cylinder, then right from the start you've got more hardware than ***** because on any other day it's blatantly obvious that it's a mismatch. Now if the V8 loses to a commonly known low-power 4 cylinder, that's good enough to make them scratch their head, N/A or turbo - it doesn't matter.
If it makes someone feel better to claim "ALL MOTOR" as opposed to "TURBO/SUPER", then whatever floats their boat... but that added sense of cockiness (pride in building your engine or not, if you take joy in trying to belittle people by claiming that your all motor beat a muscle car, it's the same thing) always comes at a price - one day you'll end up mext to a stealhty supercharged Cobra or something. Then from here you can take the "hardware vs. *****" statement I said above and reverse it - you had the ***** to race someone with more hardware, and you lost. Now what? If it beats you, will you make the same excuses i.e. "well, he's a supercharged V8" or likewise?
I'll admit I was in that stage where it was all about all motor or what not, being faster than you, etc. but I've outgrown that. Now I just enjoy working on my car, turbo, super, n/a, or NOS. If I see a car, and it's got high power, I respect it. If I beat someone in a race, then good game - wave and drive away, no bragging necessary. Why should I have to brag in the first place? I'd rather let my driving do the talking, and leave the cockiness (or lack of ***** LOL) to the Honda/Acura crowd.
But that's just IMO.
Again.
.. That'll be enough power for me. I doubt I will become a boost junky.. But hey NEVER SAY NEVER 
Contributing Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,587
From: Socal, 909/626
technically you wouldn't be running super rich with a turbo - your fuel management computer (aftermarket no doubt) should take care of the injector pulses depending on fuel requirements and boost level...
... and I'm the exact same way if it's "impromptu race on the street" action. Usually if an Integ or something revs on me etc. I just laugh and keep driving at my regular speed. Usually their response os to downshift and drive off all fast as if they just won something LOL but it doesn't bother me anymore. Sometimes if they really bug, and if I catch up to them at a stoplight I'll be so tempted to ask them if they can do more than just go straight with their Honda (i.e. touge, what I enjoy more) but usually I just don't pay attention to them.
With all this talk of high power, personally if I end up pulling the KA for an SR20DET, chances are I'm probably going to leave it BONE STOCK. As if from the factory in Japan with only the necesary mods for the swap (new radiator, new clutch, replace anything worn on the front clip) and that's about it.
... yeah right.
... and I'm the exact same way if it's "impromptu race on the street" action. Usually if an Integ or something revs on me etc. I just laugh and keep driving at my regular speed. Usually their response os to downshift and drive off all fast as if they just won something LOL but it doesn't bother me anymore. Sometimes if they really bug, and if I catch up to them at a stoplight I'll be so tempted to ask them if they can do more than just go straight with their Honda (i.e. touge, what I enjoy more) but usually I just don't pay attention to them.
With all this talk of high power, personally if I end up pulling the KA for an SR20DET, chances are I'm probably going to leave it BONE STOCK. As if from the factory in Japan with only the necesary mods for the swap (new radiator, new clutch, replace anything worn on the front clip) and that's about it.
... yeah right.