build a beter na ka
05-01-2005, 07:54 PM
#1
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: knoxville tn
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build a beter na ka
okay here is where i am starting a whole new idea...
i am in the process of redoing my whole motor... first off i am getting bigger cams... the specs for the jwt cams are not enough(now i see why over 250 hp on a na motor is almost impossible) it is in fact not much more than factory... and 8 hp for the 550 bucks you pay for them is not enough... second drawback is the intake... there is no where near enough flow... and the incomming air charge is so slow due to the length of the intake runners...the throttle body is anemic and chokes the life out of the car... and then there is the mafs that we all seem to blame every engine problem on...
second plan... custom fab a new intake... starting from the fuel injector bosses back... hack the manifold off and toss it in the junk bin... welding on short straight runners that end in a volcity stack type set up... building a 2 piece surge tank that can be taken apart for adjustments... the end of the runners that go into the surge tank are going to need to be tuned befor they are welded onto the intake... idle correction will need to take place on the new larger throttle... the surge tank will have to be shaped more like the sr20 manifold to keep the air charge speeds up for increased flow and volume... the volicity stack or air horn idea is to keep as much turbulance out of the intake air charge...here again keeping up speed and volume... and installing a map sensor ditching the mafs sensor all together...
third step... the most costly of all the steps i am outlining here... custom cams... a new billet camshaft with 475 to 500 lift and in the neighborhood of 240 to 280 duration... high lift long duration good scavaging properties ****ty vaccum properties... with the improved intake manafold you will be able to injest more air and more fuel... the air speed inside the manafold will be greatly increased allowing a larger set of cams to be used... i know of one place that will do a custom cam grind on a new billet but it will cost quite a lot of cash... this one off set of cams will be the heart of the motor again... will have a serious lump like a v8 but with titanium retainers and stronger springs it will rev like a honda... valve clearances will be real tight with this set up so fly cutting the pistons with large valve reliefs will be needed... more time at the machine shop...
fourth step... bore the block even bigger .40 or .60 over... the cast iron block has enough room with no worries to wall thickness or water and oil passages in the block becomming thin...there are pistons out there that will fill this huge (in the terms of a ka) hole... there are 2 reasons for doing this... one is for the increased displacement and second is for the head work which will come in step 5... with this plan the sohc pistons will be set at zero deck hight to give a little more clearance for the valves to open... this will drop compression a little... like .1 or 2 i have not done all the math on this plan yet but i am working on it tomorrow... but i still plan on 10.5 to 1 compression at least...
fifth step... head work... the path to power... in looking and talking to tmckinney i came up with a few ideas on the head and how the port work could be improved... anyone who has looked at the head off of the motor you will notice how shrouded the valves are... both on the intake and the exhaust... even on my stage 3 port job there was very little done in this area... main reason is do to head sealing factors with a small bore... that is why the over bore to .60 over is needed... once the valves clear the casting of the head there will be more room for combustion and a hotter spark... as well as a smoother transition from the intake to the combustion chamber... the stock head set up is only allowing incomming air and fuel to enter in a very small area... causing more turbulance and further slowing the air intake charge... unshrouding the valves will keep air speed up and will keep fuel pools from forming on the hidden side of the valves... this will increase the size of the combustion chamber and lower compression farther but still should be around 10.5 to 1 overall... with a thinner head gasket the cr will come back up again... then on the exhaust outlets there needs to be a little more refinment in the edges... my port job did a good job of blending the exhaust ports but there are still some sharp corners that the exhaust flow will have to make... short of recasting a new head there is not much that can be done here other than grinding more material out of the holes... in messing with a cracked head i have here i found that there is plenty of material left even after the porting that was done to the head to allow an easier turn to be made... why it was not done like this i have no idea... but it will be the next time around... there is not much room to add bigger valves inside of the head and that is a short comming of the design... but by increasing the incomming air volicity and clearing up around the valves the head will act like it has bigger valves installed...
sixth step...dry sump oil system... the killer of engines is oil related failures... either you ran low on oil or you have a weak oil pump... if they can be used on the new corvettes and on nascars then it can be used on my motor...i wont need a 3 or 4 pump set up like nascar but a 2 pump setup will be more than able to oil the ka... then you have the benifit of adding an external oil filter and cooler... the extra oil in the lines could save your motor if there was ever a problem...
seventh step... last thing on the list of things to do... ems... only way to go about doing this build is an ems... i am looking real hard at the tec3 system built for the ka... the only draw back to this is that i have never tuned one... i would rather work with ones that i know a little better but here again i like the crank trigger setup and the ability to direct fire coils for each plug... the tec3 can fire up to 8 coils and that could be a benifit in using 2 coils for each plug... using 2 blaster ss coils would be one trick ignition system... i also like the idea of using bosch sensors... any gm sensor will work for this system... can you say junkyard cheap???
now that i have strung together a whole line of stuff for a motor you have to ask yourself if it is worth it money wise... you could get an rb swap for the money i am planning on dropping for this set up... but here is my reasons behind it...everyone says 250 hp is max... i say bullchit... there is no reason the ka cannot put up hp numbers higher than 250... sure it cant put up high hp on a budget but it can do it... just takes someone stupid enough like me to do this kind of thing...
oh yeah i still did not mention that there will be a dual stage nos set up topping this whole thing off... with the forged internals and the ems system there is no reason that the motor would not be able to handle up to 300 hp... now not at one shot... but a progressive system... a 75 to 100 hp shot on a plate type system then an rpm activated system that fires another blast of go fast up to 200 hp in a direct port fogger system...
i am thinking traction is now becomming my biggest problem... and building a transmission that will handle the power that i should be able to make... that is the second buildup i am working on... there has to be a transmission builder out there that makes or can make me a 3500 rpm stall converter and a manual reverse valve body... hardened gears and clutches and an external trans oil cooler...
a call to b&m for more help and information... will keep it updated as things go...
have fun trying to follow my lead... and any of you knowledge kinda guys correct anything you find wrong with my thinking and ideas... all of this comes from building v8 motors... true this is a 4 banger but the mechanics in the motor is still there... the ideas and the science is the same...
i am in the process of redoing my whole motor... first off i am getting bigger cams... the specs for the jwt cams are not enough(now i see why over 250 hp on a na motor is almost impossible) it is in fact not much more than factory... and 8 hp for the 550 bucks you pay for them is not enough... second drawback is the intake... there is no where near enough flow... and the incomming air charge is so slow due to the length of the intake runners...the throttle body is anemic and chokes the life out of the car... and then there is the mafs that we all seem to blame every engine problem on...
second plan... custom fab a new intake... starting from the fuel injector bosses back... hack the manifold off and toss it in the junk bin... welding on short straight runners that end in a volcity stack type set up... building a 2 piece surge tank that can be taken apart for adjustments... the end of the runners that go into the surge tank are going to need to be tuned befor they are welded onto the intake... idle correction will need to take place on the new larger throttle... the surge tank will have to be shaped more like the sr20 manifold to keep the air charge speeds up for increased flow and volume... the volicity stack or air horn idea is to keep as much turbulance out of the intake air charge...here again keeping up speed and volume... and installing a map sensor ditching the mafs sensor all together...
third step... the most costly of all the steps i am outlining here... custom cams... a new billet camshaft with 475 to 500 lift and in the neighborhood of 240 to 280 duration... high lift long duration good scavaging properties ****ty vaccum properties... with the improved intake manafold you will be able to injest more air and more fuel... the air speed inside the manafold will be greatly increased allowing a larger set of cams to be used... i know of one place that will do a custom cam grind on a new billet but it will cost quite a lot of cash... this one off set of cams will be the heart of the motor again... will have a serious lump like a v8 but with titanium retainers and stronger springs it will rev like a honda... valve clearances will be real tight with this set up so fly cutting the pistons with large valve reliefs will be needed... more time at the machine shop...
fourth step... bore the block even bigger .40 or .60 over... the cast iron block has enough room with no worries to wall thickness or water and oil passages in the block becomming thin...there are pistons out there that will fill this huge (in the terms of a ka) hole... there are 2 reasons for doing this... one is for the increased displacement and second is for the head work which will come in step 5... with this plan the sohc pistons will be set at zero deck hight to give a little more clearance for the valves to open... this will drop compression a little... like .1 or 2 i have not done all the math on this plan yet but i am working on it tomorrow... but i still plan on 10.5 to 1 compression at least...
fifth step... head work... the path to power... in looking and talking to tmckinney i came up with a few ideas on the head and how the port work could be improved... anyone who has looked at the head off of the motor you will notice how shrouded the valves are... both on the intake and the exhaust... even on my stage 3 port job there was very little done in this area... main reason is do to head sealing factors with a small bore... that is why the over bore to .60 over is needed... once the valves clear the casting of the head there will be more room for combustion and a hotter spark... as well as a smoother transition from the intake to the combustion chamber... the stock head set up is only allowing incomming air and fuel to enter in a very small area... causing more turbulance and further slowing the air intake charge... unshrouding the valves will keep air speed up and will keep fuel pools from forming on the hidden side of the valves... this will increase the size of the combustion chamber and lower compression farther but still should be around 10.5 to 1 overall... with a thinner head gasket the cr will come back up again... then on the exhaust outlets there needs to be a little more refinment in the edges... my port job did a good job of blending the exhaust ports but there are still some sharp corners that the exhaust flow will have to make... short of recasting a new head there is not much that can be done here other than grinding more material out of the holes... in messing with a cracked head i have here i found that there is plenty of material left even after the porting that was done to the head to allow an easier turn to be made... why it was not done like this i have no idea... but it will be the next time around... there is not much room to add bigger valves inside of the head and that is a short comming of the design... but by increasing the incomming air volicity and clearing up around the valves the head will act like it has bigger valves installed...
sixth step...dry sump oil system... the killer of engines is oil related failures... either you ran low on oil or you have a weak oil pump... if they can be used on the new corvettes and on nascars then it can be used on my motor...i wont need a 3 or 4 pump set up like nascar but a 2 pump setup will be more than able to oil the ka... then you have the benifit of adding an external oil filter and cooler... the extra oil in the lines could save your motor if there was ever a problem...
seventh step... last thing on the list of things to do... ems... only way to go about doing this build is an ems... i am looking real hard at the tec3 system built for the ka... the only draw back to this is that i have never tuned one... i would rather work with ones that i know a little better but here again i like the crank trigger setup and the ability to direct fire coils for each plug... the tec3 can fire up to 8 coils and that could be a benifit in using 2 coils for each plug... using 2 blaster ss coils would be one trick ignition system... i also like the idea of using bosch sensors... any gm sensor will work for this system... can you say junkyard cheap???
now that i have strung together a whole line of stuff for a motor you have to ask yourself if it is worth it money wise... you could get an rb swap for the money i am planning on dropping for this set up... but here is my reasons behind it...everyone says 250 hp is max... i say bullchit... there is no reason the ka cannot put up hp numbers higher than 250... sure it cant put up high hp on a budget but it can do it... just takes someone stupid enough like me to do this kind of thing...
oh yeah i still did not mention that there will be a dual stage nos set up topping this whole thing off... with the forged internals and the ems system there is no reason that the motor would not be able to handle up to 300 hp... now not at one shot... but a progressive system... a 75 to 100 hp shot on a plate type system then an rpm activated system that fires another blast of go fast up to 200 hp in a direct port fogger system...
i am thinking traction is now becomming my biggest problem... and building a transmission that will handle the power that i should be able to make... that is the second buildup i am working on... there has to be a transmission builder out there that makes or can make me a 3500 rpm stall converter and a manual reverse valve body... hardened gears and clutches and an external trans oil cooler...
a call to b&m for more help and information... will keep it updated as things go...
have fun trying to follow my lead... and any of you knowledge kinda guys correct anything you find wrong with my thinking and ideas... all of this comes from building v8 motors... true this is a 4 banger but the mechanics in the motor is still there... the ideas and the science is the same...
05-01-2005, 08:44 PM
#2
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterford, Ca
Posts: 2,863
NIIICEEE. But my only concern is the boring. But if you could pull it off all the power to you. Also im concerned about DRIVABILITY. My cars a daily driver.
Question. If I add FORGED sohc pistons and rods to have a high compression, and the compression raises to above 10:1, will it be able to handle nitrous? 50, 75, 100 shot? Just wondering because Im pretty sure that you need a lower compression for nitrous, just like forced induction.
Edit: Nevermind I found your anwser for nitrous in your post.
Sorry I skimmed the last part.
Question. If I add FORGED sohc pistons and rods to have a high compression, and the compression raises to above 10:1, will it be able to handle nitrous? 50, 75, 100 shot? Just wondering because Im pretty sure that you need a lower compression for nitrous, just like forced induction.
Edit: Nevermind I found your anwser for nitrous in your post.
Sorry I skimmed the last part.
Last edited by Fast1One; 05-01-2005 at 08:46 PM.
05-02-2005, 03:18 AM
#3
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: knoxville tn
Posts: 999
fr a more detailed answer to your question... yes you can add nos to a high compression motor... as long as you have a timing retard device you can do it...you can put forced induction onto a high compression motor as long as your ignition and timing systems are bullit proof... with the forged internals and an ems that has a nos controller you can do it all day long... look at some of the boosetd motors that run turbos and nos... it can be done if done right...
05-02-2005, 06:29 PM
#5
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brunswick
Posts: 394
Itll be the tightest auto 240 ive...naw itll be the tightest 240 ive ever heard of if you pull it all off, and i have a good feelin you will, only if you did it in like a weekend hahaha...nah but good luck.
05-02-2005, 06:51 PM
#6
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: knoxville tn
Posts: 999
hell if i could do it in a weekend then it would be done already...im still in the research phaze of the design... there is a lot of questions i still need answered and a lot of emails that have to be answered befor i know what i am going to do...time will tell... but i will keep it updated... im going to the head shop some time this week to talk to them about my ideas... if what i want can be done then it will be done...
05-03-2005, 03:46 AM
#8
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: knoxville tn
Posts: 999
Originally posted by CowboyTurbo
dammit, I wish I had the techinical know-how to follow everything u said
dammit, I wish I had the techinical know-how to follow everything u said
05-03-2005, 11:01 AM
#9
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: grove city ohio
Posts: 146
question.. has you or anyone youve known looked into the cams on enjukuracing.com???http://w1.igateway.com/clients1/tc/s...epartment=cams
i was looking into them because there cheaper and more agressvie than the jwt cams
i was looking into them because there cheaper and more agressvie than the jwt cams
05-03-2005, 05:29 PM
#10
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Location: knoxville tn
Posts: 999
if that is the lift them in fact they are not even close to stock cams... lift on the stock cams is... STOCK 91 Cams - Intake - 207 degrees duration @.050”, .350 lift; Exhaust 215 duration @.050”, .367 lift... if they are giving their lift then it is not even close to the stock cams... my jwt cams are 390 lift 270 duration... not much over stock but better than 91 cams... now if they are not listing actualllift and duration then we need to find out exactly what they are... but i am going with custom cams... it is the only way i know what my grind is...
05-03-2005, 05:36 PM
#11
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: MA
Posts: 1,703
get a bood on engine building basics and theory... it will give you the basic information into what i am talking about... if you have more questions you can catch me most nights on aim... or msn messenger... aim screen name wikd24d... msn is stain12@hotmail.com
05-03-2005, 06:42 PM
#12
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Location: knoxville tn
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that is a good idea... get a junk ka and go from there... i will get pics oh some of the things i am talking about... things like the head work and all that... i just have to get some time to sit down when i have my camera here... i need to stop leaving it in my work truck...
05-06-2005, 02:45 AM
#13
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well emails answered yesterday... and now the planning stage begins... i have a phone confrence set up for this morning with the machine shop doing the porting job on my head... and with the guy who is going to be grinding my cams... everyone who is involved in the project here in knoxville is really looking forward to trying this stuff out... if it is at all possible we will know... im looking for a place to take the motor for dyno time so we can see how it is going to run and what we are looking at in the hp department as soon as i get the block and the head finished... then we will add the cams and see what happens... after that the new fabbed intake will go on... so long as we dont blow anything up during the tests... hope to have more information this evening after i get oof of work...
05-11-2005, 03:33 AM
#14
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in my search on this motor i have found that the biggest cams that can be installed is 470 lift... the problem is the cam hits the gasket surface for the valve cover... with 470 lift you need to machine out a little notch where the cam rides... there is not a whole lot of metal in that area so you cant do a lot of work in that area... now you could get fance with the gasket and form a new one... but im not going that far... guess i will have to start with the 470 lift and build from there...
