n/a tuning
 

my friend told me that he saw on another site like a n/a tunig bible on his car(Dogde Stelth) that told what was best to do with his engine and in what order. Can any body do something simular or just tell me what i should do? and how mutch power gain i could get for the least money. What whould you guys do? Intake, exhaust, remove cat, colant by pass any thing else?

I can't read that.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

There is a thread around here somewhere that tells you how to get 200 hp for around $1000 dollars.

SEARCH NEXT TIME FIRST

it's know as a turbo :laugh:

^^^LOL, yeah, the thread im talking about though thread was like port and polish, intake, exhaust and some misc. other crap.

Yup Big Vinnies post...cams and ECU/SAFC will yeild the biggest gains :thumb:

And yeah l2aine that was pretty funny :laugh:

NOS. Biggest Bang for the Buck. Hands down.

dude, was that my thread?
http://www.club240.com/forums/showth...threadid=23882

No, that wasnt it. I think it was titled "how to get 200 hp for under $1000", or something like that.

It might have been on another sitel.

eh, i think that was on here actually... back kinda on topic. To the tread starter that^link should help out

HAHA, I did that thread over a year ago. There were sooo many haterz tryin to degrade da KA. Shiat I should change that title, since most people can do head porting easily as a free mod, or whatever there time is worth.....
How about how to make 250CHP with $2200, now that is the bomb bezzy.........LOL

bomb beezy?

lol, your my hero.:laugh: :laugh:

KA SUCKS ESPECIALLY YOURS :p J/K LOL

So when are you going SR????? LOL

damn vinnie i forgot all about that post... has it been that long ago??? sh!t i needa get out more often or something...

the post was 200 hp for under 1000 bucks... it had a list of free mods as well as a few not so free...

this one... http://www.club240.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

^^^ Yeah thats the one, good post.

That thread was alright, it could of been better. I started it when I only had 7posts total. In the begining I use to have a problem communicating my info. I should of expressed more directly the brands that can be used, and the shops that you could go to for these products. I wasn't trying to talk smack to sr guys either, but the info was more aggressive than passive. It kinda FUC%ED the message that I was trying to bring across. The only purpose was to acknowledge that the KA can easily make 180~190wheel HP, and breaking that down from the 15percent degredation gives you somewhere between 200~210CHP. It just wasn't expressed in the right manner. The thread also lacked substantial evidence such as dyno charts and R&D.
I should of also gotten more indepth on cam swapping and removal of the butterflies which I didn't express at all in that thread. Should of also explained indepth the importance of reprogramming and advancing the TTP, the KA lacks most of it's power just from poor programming, and a weak advancement of 15BTDC for KAE and 20BTDC for the KADE's. Alot of that info can be taken as misconstrued info. I've learned more what too say, than what not to say. But it is an O.K thread to express the building blocks for adding donkey punches to the NA.

Just to prove that it doesnt take alot of cash to make numbers with N/A KA I like to show the proof in this dyno.
http://www.geocities.com/wssnider/240sxDYNO.html
Just with ecu reprogram and a header this KA makes 169HP at the wheels. Thats about 185~189 @ the crank. That was without doing cam swapping, or free mods, or even porting, and the list goes on and on with modifications. If you look at the time slip this KA makes less HP than the ACURA RSX TYPE S, but it beats it in quarter mile times. Interesting facts that I thought you guys should know.

speaking of which, anybody ever find a place that sells those HKS cams for a S14? and Big V, can you take a look at the why KA-T? thread I started... it's in the engine swap section.

The HKS cams were just specs taken from the CA. Since the cams lobe and durations are the same with the same bucket style hydraulics, I had a friend of mine grind those specs on a set of regular KA cams. HKS sold those cams and specs in the U.K and Japan. I think it was also sold in Australia, but I'm not to shure on that one. It still isn't noted what the power is on the KA, but the margin in power was about 30CHP for the CA from stock.

I'll take a look at the KAT thread for ya.

i have a question

what exactly does an aftermarket ecu do? change timing and airfuel ratio? can't u just do it manually and with an afc? why get an ecu and afc?

Well using a piggy back you are only fine tunning the parameters that you are dealing with in your stock timing (ignition timing), and fuel cycle (TTP).
The adjustments arent to significant and you are still bound to the stock programming, trying to adjust the TTP above +30% literally fries the ecu, with a piggy back such as the SAFC.
Purchasing a reprogrammed ecu you can work with higher functionality than your stock settings, (EXAMPLE: bumping the KA24de timing from 20 BTDC to now having it at 24BTDC, shifting the point in time in which the piston is at location 24degress in the crank stroke and then ignited in the cycle for reducing torque and optimizing HP) This will allow you to advance your ignition timing and fuel cycle (TTP). This means that you can now get more tunability and functionality, actually allowing you to advance the cam timing as well, and allowing the spark plugs to run cooler. When ever you have a stock ecu or even a reprogrammed all the settings run slightly on the richer side of the injection cycle (reducing HP and optimizing torque). Investing into a piggy back like an SAFC will allow the car builder to make significant fine tunning adjustments needed to let the system run leaner rather than richer optimizing HP, and minimizing torque.

ADD:

Remember stock ECU's aren't designed to go past certain parameters that do not involve fuel mileage, ease of starting in drastic conditions, EPA requirements, etc. and to add extreme ranges into a stock ECU (meaning allowing timing to be altered way past factory settings) would be pointless and a waste of resources for OEMs; i.e. building an ECU with more expensive components to handle high performance loads, et al.

Also some OEM ECU's don't even have certain functions or parameters available that a person building a high performance car would need. This is why standalone ECUs are popular - with a standalone you have practically an open door to tuning (provided you have the knowledge or know someone who knows how to use and take advantage of all that a standalone can do).

even tuned cars with aftermarket ECU's will still have "piggybacks" like AVC's or EVC's - but those components are there as a convenience "in the field" i.e. you get to the track and conditions need small changes to tuning... if you want to try a different setting for the course, etc. It is possible to reprogram a standalone in the field, but it's not convenient compared to a small dial or button in the cockpit where you can try settings on the fly.

ic makes sense thanks.

but care to go into what standalone ecu's have as far as functioning that oem ecu do not?

aside from the timing and air/fuel.. what do these tuners actually tune from the standalone ecu's like JWT ecu.

Thanks again! your answers are extremely helpful.

Like Raine stated earlier with the standalone you can fine tune and change settings, but it isn't that convenient, especially for every other application (performance modification you make). Your also not bound to tune within the EPA smog emissions systems either, (well accept for the AEM ems, it's a direct plug and play to all emission controls.)
With a reprogrammed it is a bit more difficult to adjust settings (ignition timing, knock sensor calibration, fuel cycle, ETC) unless you use emulator software for 16 bit and 32 bit. Or for 8 bit ecu's it is different you can just chip it out (mostly for KAE's).
Then you have piggy backs, and all piggy backs are different.
The one job they all do the same is to fool the ecu.
Couple examples:
SMT6 is a piggy back it isn't as versatile as the safc (you need a laptop for programming), and unlike the safc you can also shift your ignition timing, were as with an SAFC you can't.
SAFC just shifts around timing points in the fuel cycle to increase or decrease injection. it runs inline to your MAF sensor input and output to fool the ecu. If you increase the percentage on the SAFC you are decreasing the voltage load from the MAF (maybe I have it backwards this shiat confuses me sometimes) which tells the ecu that the engine is consuming less air, at lower air the ecu assumes that it is going to need more fuel in the cycle to generate more power.

so when people send in their car for "tuning"... where they charge like 500 bucks... and another 150 bucks everytime after that, is that what they're doing?

I always see that online and on magazines but never really understood what "tuning" entails. When is a good idea to pay these guys for tuning?

Thanks again.

Well the $500 was a bad example. Dyno tuning cost between $120~$220 depending on the shop and what they are tuning. Some shops advertise a DYNO DAY where it would cost relatively $50, no tuning involved but rather just to see what the RWHP is on the rollers.
For your major tune it deals basically with internal work, bolt ons don't matter that much (well some bolt on's like header and TB can actually be recalculated to set a better A/F ratio with the ECU. CR ratings, cams, and injection flow are the most critical for HP, so when you take it in to get it dyno tuned the standalone is programmed for what ever settings needed for the best results (after all it isn't stock OEM after that, so a new program will be needed to run more power on a much better "AIR PUMP" effecient engine.
When you get a reprogrammed ecu it is all done by calculating A/F ratio's, sometimes making the program run rich, this is why an SAFC would be used at the dyno to fine tune and calibrate the ECU so that it would run lean instead of rich.
Now the same can still be done with the stock ecu, supposedly the KA series of ecu's runs really rich in the lower RPM. Using the negative factors (below 0 settings) on the SAFC you can actually lean out the engine to get faster and better throttle responce (better atomization of air to fuel), some have noted up to 8HP gain plus the gains involved with your basic bolt on APPS such as header and filter.

different topic na tuning here... if i were to upgrade injectors and MAF (370 sr20's, z32 maf) and run intake, exhaust, basic stuff on a DE, and have it tuned to handle that... how much power would that make?
Also, can you retune the OBDll chips to stop the ecu from screwing with your mods by programming new ones??

honestly your example doesn't warrent tuning... in other words, if you were to put "intake, exhaust" you're not doing much to begin with; adding in the 370's and the Z32 MAF at this point is a little redundant since for tuning you'd have to basically "turn down" the 370's and the Z32 MAF outputs back down to OEM injectors/MAFS levels.

An intake and exhaust doesn't add power on it's own.

The 370/Z32 MAFS is more common in turbo tuning since it delivers what you'd need for a boosted engine: more fuel, more air measuring capability. For an n/a engine to require bigger injectors and MAFS (and be able to actually use them in their intended ranges) you would have to be past opening up the block (changing compression, stroke, etc.) to require such things.

Even Vinnie stated that the stocker KA ECU's run rich, and then you want to make it run richer with 370's? You're going backwards in a way. The Z32 MAFS will only measure air that the engine itself is pulling in - which won't change at all if you were to just swap MAFS on a stock n/a KA24DE - the engine will still pull in the same amount of air regardless.

Now you got a Z32 MAFS which has to be recalibrated (just to measure the same amounts of air that the stocker OEM MAFS can handle) and then you've got 370's which can force more fuel into the engine - but that doesn't matter because there's nothing 'forcing air' into the engine to compensate (thus 'forced induction, or turbo) so your fuel mixture will be running super rich...

...now if you changed rods and pistons, changed compression to something wicked, changed cam profiles, etc. then ther might be a better chance that you'd require 370's and a Z32 MAFS; but on a relatively stock or mild bolt-on KA24DE? I don't think it's the right start.

...revise the plan. N/A tuning does use some of the same principals as turbo tuning, only things get rearranged :thumb:

aight, goo to know... i would all be in prep for a turbo later on, didnt know if it would be worth it on a N/a engine.

Anyone know about tuning the obdll? Writing the new chips to remove the gay emissions programs stuff?

if you're serious about eventually going turbo, and you don't live in F'd up California and the smog laws, then I'd say go standalone with a base map and retune as required :thumb:

I would also like to make a note on the MAF's. Don't bother changing out your maf unless you plan on doing some serious boosting over 15PSI. A stock KA24de MAF can read enough air (CFM) for the engine to make upto 250 CHP.
Most people that change out there MAF, only change out for larger diameters, and that isn't even that necesarry, sometimes enlarging the diameter of the MAF can decrease swirl, which would decrease the velocity of air traveling into the engine, as well as poor atomization.
As far as the 370cc injection is concerned you need to be boosted at about 8PSI on forced induction, or if running N/A you would need a Compression ratio higher than 11.1:1, and you would also need to advance the cams and ignition timing, which I plan on doing as soon as I get the rest of the cash I need to finish this damn project. A 250CHP boosted KA will cost the same as a 250CHP N/A KA. Like Raine said you are just rearranging the internals to perform differently, and the fact is neither N/A or boosted will be smogable at those levels of HP anyways, so be prepaired to pay major scratch, I happen to be lucky and know a few people at the DMV, I also realized that up in Northern Cali they still do idle smog checks and no visual inspections, so I may be registering my car up in CHICO. That level of power will pass on idle smog check, not dyno smogs that run the engine upto 3000RPM. The reason is is that as the engine injects more fuel and air, it will also increase NOX, and Hydro Carbon levels (basically cylinder temps go through the roof as you accelerate the engine).
All in all what I try to express to people tuning is that weither you go bosted or N/A for streetable HP numbers the cost will be relative to what ever your build.

so, if you take your car to get dyno tuned, then you don't need to own any type of management system? Do you have to buy a new Ecu.
Say i was doing I/H/E, larger TB, and a new cam.
It would be worth it to tune right?
What is needed to get your vehicle tuned under those specs. Or is it a drive-in .. tune .. drive-out type of deal?

alright thanks guys... So i'll just put all the parts on at one then, no point in wasting my time/ money. PLus, the turbo setup would be bigger than 370 injectors... With the ECU tuning/ fuel mapping, i have a friend who can do it for free. He's got lots and lots of experience with it too :thumb:

don't flame me for this, but how fast will a 250 CHP N/A Ka24de powered 240 run the quarter mile and 0-60? I know there are other factors involved, but ballpark...?

13s ish...im going off what SRs run...Not sure though. Awesome thread guys...I think you should add everything from here and that other thread combine them and sticky :thumb:

Depends on the driver. I saw one N/A KA s13 240 get a 13.3 seconds in the 1/4mile. It was faster than a 350z due to it's lighter chassis.
My boy Monk is runnin between a 13.8 and 14.0 with his 350z and the chassis is a little more than 1000lb.s heavier, and it's the touring edition.
A s14 with that kind of power can probably run mid to high 13's.
Just adding a 50shot of NOS could probably put you in the 12 second range and a little more than 300CHP.
Don't know 0-60's but if you want something relatively close to the 0-60, look at the times for the sr black top s15, or s13 swaps, the transmissions and body weight are the same. The time will probably be a few points lower with KA since you shift earlier in the rpm's.

ok, once again thanx for the info Big V. Imma have to mail you a six pack sometime.

FLAME straightline is boring :p

that may be, but I can't think of a better way to get an idea of how fast a car is with a given setup... we don't exactly all drive in the same circles/tracks/roads and we DEFINITELY don't all have the same driving skills...