(PROOF) That NA KA can make 200CHP on $1000
03-01-2006, 04:07 PM
#31
03-02-2006, 12:36 PM
#32
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jerz
Posts: 132
very informative vin...are there any other tune programs other then the mentioned that are worth buying or do u recommend dealing with Gabe? and for the pulley, would u just stick with getting the crank pulley or the 3 pulley set?
03-02-2006, 01:02 PM
#33
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 72
Bikirom seems to be a very good one. Not sure if they work out with 95+ odb2 but I think there is a way to take a older ECU and modify the wiring. For the pulley, it's actually a 4 pulley set (crank, alt, p/s and w/p) not 3. Not sure if it's worth getting all 4 of them but I am currently looking into this and the bikirom also.
03-02-2006, 03:53 PM
#34
Originally posted by rocky2843
very informative vin...are there any other tune programs other then the mentioned that are worth buying or do u recommend dealing with Gabe? and for the pulley, would u just stick with getting the crank pulley or the 3 pulley set?
very informative vin...are there any other tune programs other then the mentioned that are worth buying or do u recommend dealing with Gabe? and for the pulley, would u just stick with getting the crank pulley or the 3 pulley set?
If you don't know to tune your own stuff Gabe will gladly tune your ecu, if you want to learn how to tune ECCS you can always join Gabes forum, it is free.
As far as pulleys go all you need is the crank pulley. When you buy the aftermarket ones like the Megan, or OBX the timing marks aren't set right. Originally the crank pulley and it's marks were made for the VG30e Nissan maxima's which are interchangeable. So you may want to mark your own timing marks...
Originally posted by redpotatoes
Bikirom seems to be a very good one. Not sure if they work out with 95+ odb2 but I think there is a way to take a older ECU and modify the wiring.
Bikirom seems to be a very good one. Not sure if they work out with 95+ odb2 but I think there is a way to take a older ECU and modify the wiring.
OBD2 is a bit more difficult due to the fact that there are dual settings on 2 seperate chips. People haven't been able to do to much tunning on OBD2 ecu's, from my knowledge JWT only removes speedlimiter function on the 97-98 ECU's.
Last edited by BigVinnie; 07-27-2007 at 11:36 AM.
03-03-2006, 09:04 PM
#35
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 46
The only problem is that link you put up to get devious to tune ecu's. he put up there a closed loop disable. Why would you do that. If you are in open loop the comp is going off of preset maps and is not adjusting for readings being picked up from the O2 sensor. Doesn't sound like a good thing to me.
03-04-2006, 04:30 PM
#36
O.K quick understanding of closed loop disabled.
When doing the ecu tuning with an emulator 2 function displays show up. Closed loop functions are in blue squares on the map, while the open loop are in red squares.
When ever the map displays blue squares(which are a function any where on the map dependant of TP) it uses the knock sensor signal to actually retard timing decreasing any type of increased ignition. This does not work as a performance enhancer, and only creates lag from retarded timing.
This of course is really only a function on OBD1 ecu's, and technically isn't needed for tuning, which is why OBD (8bitters have an advantage) SOHC KA's.
All the function does is shut down knock where it isn't needed in the maps, to where it hinders performance and advanced timing in the maps. It doesn't at all hinder the engine from running in a true open and closed loop, O2 sensor is still active.
The second post in this thread best discribes closed loop disable.
http://www.hybridka.com/eccs/viewtop...asc&highlight=
So lets recap. Jim Wolfe Technology tunes suck. Reason is because that they do not shut off the closed loop at any specific RPM in the MAP, (it would remove any stock setting and void car warrantee, which on the 240's it doesn't matter, they are old cars). This means that higher grade octanes need to be used in order to increase the ignition timing to TP and knock on the JWT tunes. As the example that I showed from the first dyno result(SCOTT) used 104 octane to achieve those HP numbers, now with the removal of the closed loop at certain specific RPMS the engine can achieve those same numbers on lower Octanes such as the 96octane that I stated was all that was needed (or possibly even 91 octane depending on the air density of where you live). Without a knock signal the engine only further advances it's timing making it a true performance enhancer.
When doing the ecu tuning with an emulator 2 function displays show up. Closed loop functions are in blue squares on the map, while the open loop are in red squares.
When ever the map displays blue squares(which are a function any where on the map dependant of TP) it uses the knock sensor signal to actually retard timing decreasing any type of increased ignition. This does not work as a performance enhancer, and only creates lag from retarded timing.
This of course is really only a function on OBD1 ecu's, and technically isn't needed for tuning, which is why OBD (8bitters have an advantage) SOHC KA's.
All the function does is shut down knock where it isn't needed in the maps, to where it hinders performance and advanced timing in the maps. It doesn't at all hinder the engine from running in a true open and closed loop, O2 sensor is still active.
The second post in this thread best discribes closed loop disable.
http://www.hybridka.com/eccs/viewtop...asc&highlight=
So lets recap. Jim Wolfe Technology tunes suck. Reason is because that they do not shut off the closed loop at any specific RPM in the MAP, (it would remove any stock setting and void car warrantee, which on the 240's it doesn't matter, they are old cars). This means that higher grade octanes need to be used in order to increase the ignition timing to TP and knock on the JWT tunes. As the example that I showed from the first dyno result(SCOTT) used 104 octane to achieve those HP numbers, now with the removal of the closed loop at certain specific RPMS the engine can achieve those same numbers on lower Octanes such as the 96octane that I stated was all that was needed (or possibly even 91 octane depending on the air density of where you live). Without a knock signal the engine only further advances it's timing making it a true performance enhancer.
Last edited by BigVinnie; 03-04-2006 at 05:11 PM.
03-04-2006, 10:45 PM
#37
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Slidell, LA
Posts: 2,550
damn bigvin, you should write a book... call it "NA KA tuning for the motivationally deficient" lol.
03-09-2006, 04:11 PM
#38
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newport Beach
Posts: 56
Coupla quick noob questions if you dont mind.
First of all, what is the SCV? and how do you remove it? Are there any cons to taking it out?
Secondly, as far as headers go, do you have any idea if the DC Sports headers are good? I'll try for some greddy ones if i can get my hands on em tho.
Third, what pulleys are you mentioning? crank? throttle? (are those the same thing? haha)
Last, is there any threads where I can learn about timing and how it works? I tried searching but didnt come up with much...
Thanks in advance
First of all, what is the SCV? and how do you remove it? Are there any cons to taking it out?
Secondly, as far as headers go, do you have any idea if the DC Sports headers are good? I'll try for some greddy ones if i can get my hands on em tho.
Third, what pulleys are you mentioning? crank? throttle? (are those the same thing? haha)
Last, is there any threads where I can learn about timing and how it works? I tried searching but didnt come up with much...
Thanks in advance
04-09-2006, 12:07 PM
#39
Well came across a dyno chart of a bone stock SR20det boosted at 7PSI. This is just for comparison purposes of a turboed 2.0litre VS. an NA 2.4 litre.
Sr20det @7PSI
VS.
KA24de with under a $1000 in bolt ons and ECU tune
If you guys haven't noticed both engines make peak HP at about 5600RPM. The sr is just able to drag a loss in power longer due to it's fully counter weighed crank. But none the less power drops after 5600RPM.
Sr20det @7PSI
VS.
KA24de with under a $1000 in bolt ons and ECU tune
If you guys haven't noticed both engines make peak HP at about 5600RPM. The sr is just able to drag a loss in power longer due to it's fully counter weighed crank. But none the less power drops after 5600RPM.
Last edited by BigVinnie; 04-09-2006 at 02:14 PM.
04-09-2006, 09:55 PM
#41
DAMN!! Nice work on the comparisons concepts14.
So now in comparing the charts to effeciency. The sr20det uses 370cc injection to accomplish those numbers on boost, this means wider pulse width and more fuel will be dumped in higher RPM when you stomp on the pedal.
So now we have an NA KA that uses 270cc injection no matter how hard you hit the pedal the engine will only consume less fuel than the sr20det, and also probably run stoich (perfect leaness A/F ratio). More than likely the sr20det will need to dump a bit more fuel in order to cool cylinder temps, to also keep knock sensor signal low, and also to prevent early detonation.
As far as fuel economy is made between these 2 engines the KA does pretty well. Adding a performance exhaust system, and a few bolt ons even increases it's gas mileage from the EPA's 27MPG freeway and 22MPG city.
So now looking at price comparissons.
We have a KA with DO-IT yourself bolt ons and an ecu tune for under $1000.
We also have an SR20det with engine,transmission, and ecu for about $2000 no matter how you see it. This is a DO-IT your self for some people, or can cost $700 for an install as well. So roughly if time equals money, this will cost $2700 to start. Thats without BOV, boost controllers and other peripherals that could cost upto an additional $500~$900 just to get the additional boost wanted or to be achieved.
so now lets say you want to internally modify the KA, have it run like new with some higher CR pistons (10.1:1 or higher).... OK super tech pistons or better for under $400, and work to get it done about $1500 in labor still under the cost it would take to buy and beef up the SR, and chances are it is still 50state street legal, and can achieve upto 230HP at the crank (also what is achievable to the SR's power out put at 13PSI and maxed out 370cc injection).
Overall when it comes to streetable HP at the crank the price tag is about the same when it comes to making 250HP at the crank wether it's NA, or FI (KA24de VS. SR20det). Shure FI makes big numbers past 300HP at the crank, but what it cost to make it will then be fractions to the dollar for what it took you to first start that project, just as if you were to modify an NA KA anyways.
If you are the kind of person with moderate performance goals under 250HP at the crank the KA is a worthy achiever.
So now in comparing the charts to effeciency. The sr20det uses 370cc injection to accomplish those numbers on boost, this means wider pulse width and more fuel will be dumped in higher RPM when you stomp on the pedal.
So now we have an NA KA that uses 270cc injection no matter how hard you hit the pedal the engine will only consume less fuel than the sr20det, and also probably run stoich (perfect leaness A/F ratio). More than likely the sr20det will need to dump a bit more fuel in order to cool cylinder temps, to also keep knock sensor signal low, and also to prevent early detonation.
As far as fuel economy is made between these 2 engines the KA does pretty well. Adding a performance exhaust system, and a few bolt ons even increases it's gas mileage from the EPA's 27MPG freeway and 22MPG city.
So now looking at price comparissons.
We have a KA with DO-IT yourself bolt ons and an ecu tune for under $1000.
We also have an SR20det with engine,transmission, and ecu for about $2000 no matter how you see it. This is a DO-IT your self for some people, or can cost $700 for an install as well. So roughly if time equals money, this will cost $2700 to start. Thats without BOV, boost controllers and other peripherals that could cost upto an additional $500~$900 just to get the additional boost wanted or to be achieved.
so now lets say you want to internally modify the KA, have it run like new with some higher CR pistons (10.1:1 or higher).... OK super tech pistons or better for under $400, and work to get it done about $1500 in labor still under the cost it would take to buy and beef up the SR, and chances are it is still 50state street legal, and can achieve upto 230HP at the crank (also what is achievable to the SR's power out put at 13PSI and maxed out 370cc injection).
Overall when it comes to streetable HP at the crank the price tag is about the same when it comes to making 250HP at the crank wether it's NA, or FI (KA24de VS. SR20det). Shure FI makes big numbers past 300HP at the crank, but what it cost to make it will then be fractions to the dollar for what it took you to first start that project, just as if you were to modify an NA KA anyways.
If you are the kind of person with moderate performance goals under 250HP at the crank the KA is a worthy achiever.
Last edited by BigVinnie; 04-09-2006 at 09:58 PM.
04-10-2006, 05:32 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 72
These dyno's are a nice find. I am currently in the process of building a n/a KA and also a KA-t. By the end of the summer, I should be going on a dyno to see my numbers. Keep this thread alive !
05-12-2006, 10:31 AM
#43
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 37
Hi Big Vinnie,
Could please check this 2 diferent designs and tell me if it is better than the obx header please?
My intention is to make the same mod you did, but you mentioned OBX header are not the best so I am looking for different designs.
Thanks in advance.
1-> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
2-> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Could please check this 2 diferent designs and tell me if it is better than the obx header please?
My intention is to make the same mod you did, but you mentioned OBX header are not the best so I am looking for different designs.
Thanks in advance.
1-> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
2-> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
05-12-2006, 12:46 PM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jerz
Posts: 132
neither one...if you are gonna go obx, go with http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-R...64312991QQrdZ1
the best performance is DC- Sports header as of now in my opinion...I have one on order and will be installing it within a week or two...i say pay the extra couple of bucks and get the best on the market for our 240's...it'll be worth the money.
the best performance is DC- Sports header as of now in my opinion...I have one on order and will be installing it within a week or two...i say pay the extra couple of bucks and get the best on the market for our 240's...it'll be worth the money.
05-12-2006, 02:09 PM
#45
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 37
This ebay link is no longer avaliable I couldn't see anything.
Try to see another link with the same model please.
And my 240SX is S14 1995 A/T.
I only found Dc-sports header for S13's.
According to Big-Vinnie for S14 the 4-2-1 needs to be easy on flow to alow the engine breathing freely, as I understood. The Dc-sports I saw are almost a 4-1 so close, and not like the obx 4-2-1.
I'm just trying to get the best for a N/A KA-DE 1995 S14 for the lowest price as Big Vinnie got. But I know since he did it better options came up and better prices too.
Also DC-sports as I've been seing is very very expensive the forum is about HP with low cash. OBX's are less than 150 right now while the DC's I saw are runing on +400.
Than I also wanna be street legal and pass all emissions test like Vinnie's mod.
Try to see another link with the same model please.
And my 240SX is S14 1995 A/T.
I only found Dc-sports header for S13's.
According to Big-Vinnie for S14 the 4-2-1 needs to be easy on flow to alow the engine breathing freely, as I understood. The Dc-sports I saw are almost a 4-1 so close, and not like the obx 4-2-1.
I'm just trying to get the best for a N/A KA-DE 1995 S14 for the lowest price as Big Vinnie got. But I know since he did it better options came up and better prices too.
Also DC-sports as I've been seing is very very expensive the forum is about HP with low cash. OBX's are less than 150 right now while the DC's I saw are runing on +400.
Than I also wanna be street legal and pass all emissions test like Vinnie's mod.
Last edited by bombinha; 05-12-2006 at 03:21 PM.